Jump stop

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's no different than what's been said here. Why can't you guys get that through your head?

A dribbler jumps off one foot and lands on two feet. That's a JUMP STOP.

If he ends his dribble with his foot on the floor, he cannot pivot.

If he ends the dribble after he jumps, he can pivot.

But both are JUMP STOPS.

But according to you guys, if a player jumps, ends his dribble while airborne and then lands with both feet simultaneously, it's not a jump stop.

If it's not a jump stop, what the hell is it? Call it what you want, they don't call it a jump stop in Western PA. They would refer to this as a player landing with the ball.

Again, in my area of the country, the teaching for NFHS refs that I have experienced, has only defined the "jump stop" as jumping off one foot and landing on two - using this term as a situation when player may no longer pivot. Maybe we are still in the Stone Age up here. All I was doing was clarifying that the term "Jump Stop" seems to have different connotations in different parts of our nation. Thank you for the education on the broader definition of the term. I will do my best to have the other refs in my area begin thinking along this line.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

Again, in my area of the country, the teaching for NFHS refs that I have experienced, has only defined the "jump stop" as jumping off one foot and landing on two -

IIRC, when the term was first used, this is how REFS defined it; COACHS defined it as gathering the ball in the air and landing on both feet". Thus, the confusion.

In general now, the term is used in both ways.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The easiest thing to say to a coach is "It was indeed a jump stop, but it was the illegal version." Or some such. "Yes, but it wasn't a legal jump stop."

Actually the "jump stop" is always legal, it's the players movement after the jump stop is complete (either variety) which makes it a legal play or not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Actually the "jump stop" is always legal, it's the players movement after the jump stop is complete (either variety) which makes it a legal play or not.

As long as it's correctly executed....
I've called a few travels on the "jump stop" when a player "alights" from one foot but the two feet do not land simultaneously.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

As long as it's correctly executed....
I've called a few travels on the "jump stop" when a player "alights" from one foot but the two feet do not land simultaneously.

So you're saying that if the dribbler catches the ball with both feet off the ground they may land on two feet or one followed by the other but if the dribble is ended with one foot on the floor they may only land on two feet?

Is that what 4-44-2b is saying

I stand corrected rainmaker, the "illegal jump stop" Snaqwells described would look awfully weird but I guess where there's a will there's a way.

[pitchfork]

All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

As a ref if you explain it that way most coaches worth having a discussion with will know exactly what you are talking about if they don't you most likely will be wasting your breath no matter what you say.

[Adam]

Wow, this doesn't help me. Then again, I understand the concepts well. You're a little bit wrong on #2, though. The player may pick up either or both feet as long as neither one touches the floor after going up and before the player legally relinquishes player control.

#1 (the 2nd jump stop everyone is talking about), to me, is just a landing. Rebounders do it all the time. The only difference is that with the "jump stop," players are typically moving horizontally as they gather the ball. The definition of this particular move is really not needed in the part of the rule book describing the other jump stop.

What I mean is, the "catch-and-land" jump stop is legal even without this reference. The "catch-leap-and-land" jump stop is not legal without this particular portion of the rules.

The "one count" and "two count" explanations aren't going to help. Coaches who know what it is will either leave you alone or they saw it differently. If an explanation is warranted and time allows, just tell them what they did specifically to warrant the call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

1) All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

2) Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

1) We're making it too hard? I don't have a clue what you're talking about in either #1 or #2. It's confusing as hell. Are you talking about landing on both feet simulaneously in #1, and in #2 landing on one foot followed by the other, or landing on one foot and jumping onto both feet simultaneously?

2) Disagree completely. Do you have any statistics that will back up that statement?

[blindzebra]

The funny part about this is that in both cases the player is almost always jumping off of one foot and landing on two, the difference is where they gathered or caught the ball...some of us are just able to recognize this, some apparently not.

[pitchfork]

Jurassic Referee

Very simple, with a one count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and you have a pivot still available. A two count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and dont have a piviot foot available. In your question you thought #2 may reefer to landing on one foot followed by the other, that would be a stride stop, not a jump stop. We could open a whole new can of worms describing the legal footwork allowed after a stride stop depending of course when the and how the ball was gathered but.....

as far as stats none, just personal experience watching high school games in LA. Even with clear knowledge of the rules it can be a tough call because the game moves so fast.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

Jurassic Referee

Very simple, with a one count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and you have a pivot still available. A two count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and dont have a piviot foot available. In your question you thought #2 may reefer to landing on one foot followed by the other, that would be a stride stop, not a jump stop. We could open a whole new can of worms describing the legal footwork allowed after a stride stop depending of course when the and how the ball was gathered but.....

This one's easy and simple. First foot down after the ball is gathered is the pivot. Now, see pivot rules for traveling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

1) Very simple, with a one count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and you have a pivot still available. A two count jump stop you land on two feet at the same time and dont have a piviot foot available.

2) In your question you thought #2 may reefer to landing on one foot followed by the other, that would be a stride stop, not a jump stop. We could open a whole new can of worms describing the legal footwork allowed after a stride stop depending of course when the and how the ball was gathered but.....

1) I hate to tell you this, pitchfork, but that statement makes absolutely zero sense. Both cases that you cited are the exact same--->in both, the player is landing on both feet at the same time. But......in one, you say that the player has a pivot foot, but they don't have one in the other. Again, the rules, both NCAA and NFHS, are very explicit. If you land on both feet simultaneously, you can pivot on either foot.

2) Again, what can of worms? This play is also covered very explicitly under both NCAA and NFHS rules. The first foot that the player lands on is always the pivot foot.

Both of those calls are easy, as long as an official reads and understands the rules. A good official will have no problems at all with them. Those rules haven't changed in the last 50 years either, no matter what some people might want to call them.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

So you're saying that if the dribbler catches the ball with both feet off the ground they may land on two feet or one followed by the other but if the dribble is ended with one foot on the floor they may only land on two feet?

CORRECT. If he lands one foot after another, it's traveling.

Originally Posted by pitchfork

All of you are making this way too hard. Coaches(lute Olson, Ralph Miller, Tex Winter and John Wooden come to mid) teach 2 types of jump stops. 1) a one count jump stop( opon landing you may pivot shoot or pass or even execute a step through move where the pivot foot can be lifted) 2) a Two count jump stop(opon landing you have no pivot foot and may shoot or pass or lift one foot to shoot or pass) This terminology, one and two count jump stop while not in the current rulebook has been taught by some of the best coaches since at least the 1930s, and I believe the terms were in the rulebook at one time.60s

Many high school referees call the first example a travel because "it looks like a travel" and because most players at that level can"t execute the move in a leagal manner and it is a travel.

As a ref if you explain it that way most coaches worth having a discussion with will know exactly what you are talking about if they don't you most likely will be wasting your breath no matter what you say.

WTF does a "count" have to do with it?

Personally, I couldn't care less whether the coach understands it or not. I ain't having that convo.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

The funny part about this is that in both cases the player is almost always jumping off of one foot and landing on two, the difference is where they gathered or caught the ball...some of us are just able to recognize this, some apparently not.

Exactly what I was telling Ref from PA above.

[Johnny Ringo]

Boy, a video image of what is legal and illegal here would be great. Anyone out there have the abilty to film what is legal and what is not and post it on the web somewhere?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why can't you guys get that through your head?
A dribbler jumps off one foot and lands on two feet. That's a JUMP STOP.

From the NCAA clarification in 2004-5:

Rule 4-42, page 76: The following definition shall be added:

A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving or dribbling with ...

1. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).

2. Two feet off the playing court, lands on one foot, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (no pivot foot).

A jump stop may also be executed when the dribbler has one foot on the playing court, initiates a jump off that foot, ends the dribble with both feet off the playing court and lands simultaneously on both feet (either foot can be established as the pivot foot).
Rationale: Adds clarity to a commonly misunderstood term.

Actually, this is inaccurate, too, but since it's the NCAA definition, those under NCAA jurisdiciton will have to live with it.

A "jump stop" actually refers to the stop, not to the whole move as described above. The alternative method of stopping is the "stride stop", where one foot lands then the other. Both stops can be executed whether on offense or defense, with or without the ball. Since the "Pro Hop" move incorporates a "jump stop" within the move, the "Pro Hop" has become known as a "jump stop", although this terminology is confusing and ambiguous.

"It's a dessert topping AND a floor wax." -SNL.