Does this constitute fighting ?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by AFHusker

While not the same as setting them out to cool off, an official can direct a player to leave the game for failure to wear the uniform properly.

Um, not if they are wearing their uniform properly, you can't. You also can't keep them from coming right back in either.

Why play games? Use the rules that you have; just call what happens.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

My rulebooks are packed away for the summer, but I thought that fight-provoking acts were only considered fighting if they actually provoked a fight.

Anyone who can verify this one way or the other?

RULE 4
SECTION 18 FIGHTING
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 . . . An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 . . . An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

That is the text of the rule. I highlighted and underlined what I believe would make the first unsporting act qualify as fighting. If the retaliation action of fighting doesn't take place, I can't say that by rule the first act could be considered fighting. It is just an unsporting act.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

"Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as......the usual suspects"

So I might be able to say that running at each other while yelling is a combative act..

You could say that, but I would advise you to deal in concrete specifics instead of trying to make a rule fit a situation. Keep it simple and go with what you've got. In this case don't bother with the fighting issue, just apply the definition of a flagrant foul to the actions of these players and use that as your basis for DQing them. It makes for a more straightforward report and you won't be second-guessed nearly as much as you would if open yourself up by trying to justify invoking the fighting rule.

Just my opinion.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

I am lead. Ball bouncing around at division line. 5 kids going after it. We got scrum action...

Not trying to sound like an esoteric, Mr Know-It-All smart a$$ nor meaning to go way off topic, but this action does not metaphorically describe a "scrum". In rugby, a scrum is a set, controlled movement to put a dead ball back in play with an equal number of positioned opposing players. A scrum most certainly is not a random, flailing, helter-skelter, looks-like-a-soccer-brawl type action. Instead, the jabillions and jazillions of people who incorrectly refer to any example of a cluster-f*** as a scrum would perhaps be more correctly describing a "ruck" or a "maul", actions to keep a live ball in play which can, indeed, sometimes appear to be a cluster-f***.

Sorry. As on old rugger it just always pains me a bit to hear a scrum (one of the few things on a rugby pitch that I actually had some skill at) so disparaged. Okay, off the soapbox and back to life as I know it........

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, not if they are wearing their uniform properly, you can't. You also can't keep them from coming right back in either.

Why play games? Use the rules that you have; just call what happens.

I agree that you can't send them out if they are wearing it properly, but I said for failure to wear the uniform properly.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Not trying to sound like an esoteric, Mr Know-It-All smart a$$ nor meaning to go way off topic,

Too late.

but this action does not metaphorically describe a "scrum".

Scrum:
2. British. a place or situation of confusion and racket; hubbub.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrum

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Scrum:
2. British. a place or situation of confusion and racket; hubbub.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrum

OUCH! That one has to hurt doesn't it CornDog.......

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You could say that, but I would advise you to deal in concrete specifics instead of trying to make a rule fit a situation. Keep it simple and go with what you've got. In this case don't bother with the fighting issue, just apply the definition of a flagrant foul to the actions of these players and use that as your basis for DQing them. It makes for a more straightforward report and you won't be second-guessed nearly as much as you would if open yourself up by trying to justify invoking the fighting rule.

Just my opinion.

Agreed. I wasn't married to my position. I was more bored at home then anything. . That and i haven't played with the kids in this sandbox in awhile.....

[Corndog89]

Scrum:
2. British. a place or situation of confusion and racket; hubbub.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

OUCH! That one has to hurt doesn't it CornDog.......

DOH! I'm taking my fat, overblown football (along with my fat, overblown, bruised ego) home and not letting the rest of you play!

But in my defense, what do the Brits know about the English language?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Scrum:
2. British. a place or situation of confusion and racket; hubbub.




DOH! I'm taking my fat, overblown football (along with my fat, overblown, bruised ego) home and not letting the rest of you play!

But in my defense, what do the Brits know about the English language?

You know, the old chap has a point.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

It's a boys frosh summer tourney. Teams are this season's incoming Frosh class. Championship game. NFHS rules.

I am lead. Ball bouncing around at division line. 5 kids going after it. We got scrum action, partner passes on it all and ball pops out towards the other basket. I am now moving towards the division line. 2 of the kids start running at other full speed,yelling not so nice greetings, never make it to each other because 2 other players get in the way and keep them seperated. I did the big whistle blast thing which seemed to help, somewhat. Whole lotta pushing and screaming going on. I tweet. I got 2 ejections. A little chaos but coaches are cool about the whole thing.

My partner who is doing the evaulating/mentoring thing pretty much reads me the riot act for the ejections. Says I should have just sat them down to cool off for awhile, since they never made contact with each other.. I like this guy . i respect him . I think he is a very solid varsity official. I just think he missed the boat on this one.

What do you guys/gals think ?

There are things that I would do in summer league that I would not do in a varsity contest. #1.) ejecting players in a big game where there was no contact, might lend the opinion you are not ready to work at this level. you gonna play the biggest baddest card in the deck, we need to see blood or a viscous act, like an elbow that missed.

#2.) Listen to your senior partner because he makes a lot of sense. I'd send them to the bench or just give them a double technical. Giving them double flagrant/ejections seems overkill to me but I was not there, so I withhold my judgment on the play.

What I mean by doing things different in summer versus winter. In summer league, go to the bench. Emotions can and do run very high and out of control in this game, especially in the hotter climates of America. With that being said, I had a summer league game where I should have called a flagrant or at least an intentional, but hesitated and it turned out to be the worse game I ever had because retaliation and it was a mess. Parents squared off on each other at the end of the day. My point is, don't hesitate to take care of business and it sounds like you did, you just did it too good, and in this one case, too good can be too bad.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Old School

you gonna play the biggest baddest card in the deck, we need to see blood or a viscous act, like an elbow that missed.

I'm glad you're not a real ref, 'cause I'd hate to work a game with you.

I've ejected for less, and would gladly do it again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'm glad you're not a real ref, 'cause I'd hate to work a game with you.

A wise man once said exactly the same thing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

There are things that I would do in summer league that I would not do in a varsity contest.

For instance actually officiate the game!

Originally Posted by Old School

...you just did it too good, and in this one case, too good can be too bad.

Was this run through one of those foreign language translators?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'm glad you're not a real ref, 'cause I'd hate to work a game with you.

I've ejected for less, and would gladly do it again.

Hell, I'd hate to work a game with you if you're tossing players for minor stuff. What the heck you gonna do when a real problem comes along? Show some balls and try a little game management before you pull the trigger. I mean think about something more then yourself on the court.

Did you ever consider, grandpa or Aunt Mary drives a 100miles to see Billy play for the first time, and he/she gets ejected in the first quarter because him and another player was going after a loose ball, all out, which is the way the coaches want you play, and trigger happy it's all about me referee ejects Billy and opponent because he didn't like the way they looked at each other when they got up off the ground, after diving for the ball. No blood, no punches thrown, just good ole fashion hustle. I guess if you never played the game at that level you wouldn't understand.

Hell no, I wouldn't want to work with you either........