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-   -   Does this constitute fighting ? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36427-does-constitute-fighting.html)

Chess Ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:07am
Does this constitute fighting ?
 
It's a boys frosh summer tourney. Teams are this season's incoming Frosh class. Championship game. NFHS rules.

I am lead. Ball bouncing around at division line. 5 kids going after it. We got scrum action, partner passes on it all and ball pops out towards the other basket. I am now moving towards the division line. 2 of the kids start running at other full speed,yelling not so nice greetings, :eek: never make it to each other because 2 other players get in the way and keep them seperated. I did the big whistle blast thing which seemed to help, somewhat. Whole lotta pushing and screaming going on. I tweet. I got 2 ejections. A little chaos but coaches are cool about the whole thing.

My partner who is doing the evaulating/mentoring thing pretty much reads me the riot act for the ejections. Says I should have just sat them down to cool off for awhile, since they never made contact with each other.. I like this guy . i respect him . I think he is a very solid varsity official. I just think he missed the boat on this one.

What do you guys/gals think ?

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:41am
Judgment and HTBT call imo. You don't need contact or "fighting" <i>per se</i> to have flagrant technical fouls anyway. Flagrant acts could be swearing, gestures, etc.

If you felt that the the game was better off without the l'il sh!ts, I ain't gonna second-guess you.

Dan_ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 09:45am
Fighting is defined in rule 4. According to what my book says you got it right. Not sure I have much to say about any evaluator who would 'read you the riot act' for strongly dealing with this sitch.

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:07am
Sounds like appropriate action took place to me. I don't think you can "sit" them down. The coach is the only one who decides who sits. Penalty boxes aren't in our sport.

Adam Tue Jul 10, 2007 01:02pm
The only way you can "sit them down" is to eject them. Well done.

Chess Ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 01:31pm
I'm DOWN with that
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
The only way you can "sit them down" is to eject them. Well done.
Some of the refs have the philosophy that "sitting" them is okay. I think it's leakage from rec/summer ball. Had a partner try this in a JV boys game. Coach refused and the conversation was interesting. Kids ended up not sitting but it was kinda fun to watch it play out.......

RookieDude Tue Jul 10, 2007 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
Whole lotta pushing and screaming going on.
Kids right out of Middle School pushing and screaming and basically acting like "little sh!ts".....no problem with the ejections.

High School Varsity game in the regular season?...still no problem...BUT, I can see, maybe, what your Varsity mentor was trying to get across.

He might have seen unsporting activity...T's...not FLAGRANT activity which is ejections. I don't know, I wasn't there. Again, "reading you the riot act" and just mentioning the two possible calls...are two different styles of "teaching". ;)

Jurassic Referee Tue Jul 10, 2007 01:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
Some of the refs have the philosophy that "sitting" them is okay. I think it's leakage from rec/summer ball. Had a partner try this in a JV boys game. Coach refused and the conversation was interesting. Kids ended up not sitting but it was kinda fun to watch it play out.......
That's why you might whisper to the coach that it might be a good idea to get his player outa there to cool down a little bit, but you can't <b>tell</b> the coach to sit that player. It's always the coach's choice only.

Boiler14 Tue Jul 10, 2007 02:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
Some of the refs have the philosophy that "sitting" them is okay. I think it's leakage from rec/summer ball. Had a partner try this in a JV boys game. Coach refused and the conversation was interesting. Kids ended up not sitting but it was kinda fun to watch it play out.......
If the coach acts this way, no wonder the players do.:(

IREFU2 Tue Jul 10, 2007 03:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
It's a boys frosh summer tourney. Teams are this season's incoming Frosh class. Championship game. NFHS rules.

I am lead. Ball bouncing around at division line. 5 kids going after it. We got scrum action, partner passes on it all and ball pops out towards the other basket. I am now moving towards the division line. 2 of the kids start running at other full speed,yelling not so nice greetings, :eek: never make it to each other because 2 other players get in the way and keep them seperated. I did the big whistle blast thing which seemed to help, somewhat. Whole lotta pushing and screaming going on. I tweet. I got 2 ejections. A little chaos but coaches are cool about the whole thing.

My partner who is doing the evaulating/mentoring thing pretty much reads me the riot act for the ejections. Says I should have just sat them down to cool off for awhile, since they never made contact with each other.. I like this guy . i respect him . I think he is a very solid varsity official. I just think he missed the boat on this one.

What do you guys/gals think ?
Good job!!!! You got rid of the DRAMA!!!!

Nevadaref Tue Jul 10, 2007 05:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
It's a boys frosh summer tourney. Teams are this season's incoming Frosh class. Championship game. NFHS rules.

I am lead. Ball bouncing around at division line. 5 kids going after it. We got scrum action, partner passes on it all and ball pops out towards the other basket. I am now moving towards the division line. 2 of the kids start running at other full speed,yelling not so nice greetings, :eek: never make it to each other because 2 other players get in the way and keep them seperated. I did the big whistle blast thing which seemed to help, somewhat. Whole lotta pushing and screaming going on. I tweet. I got 2 ejections. A little chaos but coaches are cool about the whole thing.

My partner who is doing the evaulating/mentoring thing pretty much reads me the riot act for the ejections. Says I should have just sat them down to cool off for awhile, since they never made contact with each other.. I like this guy . i respect him . I think he is a very solid varsity official. I just think he missed the boat on this one.

What do you guys/gals think ?
1. The actions of the players as you have described them do NOT meet the NFHS definition of fighting per 4-18. This is the case since neither player attemtped to "strike, punch or kick an opponent." So you should not charge either player with fighting. Of course, this doesn't mean that they cannot be disqualified for another reason! ;)

2. In my opinion, the actions of both players clearly meet the definition of a flagrant foul (4-19-4) as each displayed "unacceptable conduct" and that conduct was "extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive." I would disqualify both players using the wording of that rule.

3. As others have said, an official has no authority whatsoever to prevent a player from further participation in a contest unless that player has been disqualified. Under strict NFHS rules there are no temporary benchings for cooling off.

4. In summary, I think that you got the situation right, but for the wrong reason. I think that your "mentor" needs to reexamine how he handles extreme behavior.

Adam Tue Jul 10, 2007 05:45pm
Nevada, I thought fighting was expanded recently to include acts that could provoke a fight. thoughts?

Mark Dexter Tue Jul 10, 2007 06:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Nevada, I thought fighting was expanded recently to include acts that could provoke a fight. thoughts?
My rulebooks are packed away for the summer, but I thought that fight-provoking acts were only considered fighting if they actually provoked a fight.

Anyone who can verify this one way or the other?

Chess Ref Tue Jul 10, 2007 06:37pm
"Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as......the usual suspects"

So I might be able to say that running at each other while yelling is a combative act..

AFHusker Tue Jul 10, 2007 07:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
3. As others have said, an official has no authority whatsoever to prevent a player from further participation in a contest unless that player has been disqualified. Under strict NFHS rules there are no temporary benchings for cooling off.
While not the same as setting them out to cool off, an official can direct a player to leave the game for failure to wear the uniform properly.


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