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Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 07:01pm
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I'm going over old tests and making sure the answers are correct according to '05-'06 rules so that I can give them as review tests to new applicants in the Fall. These questions on fighting made me go hmmmmmmmm.

#1) A1 and B1 get into a confrontation which is quickly handled by the officials without any penalties being assessed. A6 and A7 leave the bench and come on the floor. Official charges one team foul to team A, one indirect technical foul to the coach and awards team B two FTs. Is the official correct?

You have to give a team foul for each team member that's DQ'd, right?

#2) A1 and B1 begin fighting during a live ball. Coach B and B6 run onto the floor. The coach was not beckoned by either official. Official DQ's A1, B1, B6, and Coach B, charges team A with one team foul, team B with three team fouls and awards team A four FTs and the ball OOB at the division line opposite the table. Is the official correct?

Four FTs? Is that two for having an uneven number of participants and two more for the coach?
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Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 07:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#1) A1 and B1 get into a confrontation which is quickly handled by the officials without any penalties being assessed. A6 and A7 leave the bench and come on the floor. Official charges one team foul to team A, one indirect technical foul to the coach and awards team B two FTs. Is the official correct?

You have to give a team foul for each team member that's DQ'd, right?

I don't have my rule books with me but I believe that if players leave the bend and DON'T PARTICIPATE in the fight (or what ever confrontation is going on) the coach is only charged with one indirect T and one team foul no matter how many players come off the bench. Each player who comes off the bench IS charged with a FLAGRENT T and is ejected. At least that's the way I understand it.
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Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'm going over old tests and making sure the answers are correct according to '05-'06 rules so that I can give them as review tests to new applicants in the Fall. These questions on fighting made me go hmmmmmmmm.

#1) A1 and B1 get into a confrontation which is quickly handled by the officials without any penalties being assessed. A6 and A7 leave the bench and come on the floor. Official charges one team foul to team A, one indirect technical foul to the coach and awards team B two FTs. Is the official correct?

You have to give a team foul for each team member that's DQ'd, right?

#2) A1 and B1 begin fighting during a live ball. Coach B and B6 run onto the floor. The coach was not beckoned by either official. Official DQ's A1, B1, B6, and Coach B, charges team A with one team foul, team B with three team fouls and awards team A four FTs and the ball OOB at the division line opposite the table. Is the official correct?

Four FTs? Is that two for having an uneven number of participants and two more for the coach?
Correct on both questions.

A team foul is charged for every direct technical foul, of which there are two in #1.

In #2, A1 and B1 are guilty of double technical fouls, so no FTs are shot for those two flagrant T's.
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Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:26pm
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From the 2004-2005 test:

52. If bench personnel A6, A7 and A8 leave the confines of the bench when a fight may break out, each is charged with a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified.

Answer: TRUE
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Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
From the 2004-2005 test:

52. If bench personnel A6, A7 and A8 leave the confines of the bench when a fight may break out, each is charged with a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified.

Answer: TRUE
I believe he was asking about the team foul situation.
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Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 03:22am
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Quote:
Originally posted by gostars
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#1) A1 and B1 get into a confrontation which is quickly handled by the officials without any penalties being assessed. A6 and A7 leave the bench and come on the floor. Official charges one team foul to team A, one indirect technical foul to the coach and awards team B two FTs. Is the official correct?

You have to give a team foul for each team member that's DQ'd, right?

I don't have my rule books with me but I believe that if players leave the bend and DON'T PARTICIPATE in the fight (or what ever confrontation is going on) the coach is only charged with one indirect T and one team foul no matter how many players come off the bench. Each player who comes off the bench IS charged with a FLAGRENT T and is ejected. At least that's the way I understand it.
You got the indirect part correct, but not the team fouls.

I bet you are thinking about the little note saying that the indirect T does not count toward the team total, it does not, but the individual T's do.
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Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 09:34am
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Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:
Originally posted by gostars
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias

#1) A1 and B1 get into a confrontation which is quickly handled by the officials without any penalties being assessed. A6 and A7 leave the bench and come on the floor. Official charges one team foul to team A, one indirect technical foul to the coach and awards team B two FTs. Is the official correct?

You have to give a team foul for each team member that's DQ'd, right?

I don't have my rule books with me but I believe that if players leave the bend and DON'T PARTICIPATE in the fight (or what ever confrontation is going on) the coach is only charged with one indirect T and one team foul no matter how many players come off the bench. Each player who comes off the bench IS charged with a FLAGRENT T and is ejected. At least that's the way I understand it.
You got the indirect part correct, but not the team fouls.

I bet you are thinking about the little note saying that the indirect T does not count toward the team total, it does not, but the individual T's do.
I guess I was. Thanks for the correction.
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Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 10:03am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Correct on both questions.

A team foul is charged for every direct technical foul, of which there are two in #1.

In #2, A1 and B1 are guilty of double technical fouls, so no FTs are shot for those two flagrant T's.
Just to be doubly sure, Tony, you're saying the official in the question is correct? Or I'm correct in thinking that the official got it wrong in both questions? Sounds like I'm correct, but I just want to be sure.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Snake~eyes
From the 2004-2005 test:

52. If bench personnel A6, A7 and A8 leave the confines of the bench when a fight may break out, each is charged with a flagrant technical foul and is disqualified.

Answer: TRUE
I believe he was asking about the team foul situation.
Oh well.....
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Correct on both questions.

A team foul is charged for every direct technical foul, of which there are two in #1.

In #2, A1 and B1 are guilty of double technical fouls, so no FTs are shot for those two flagrant T's.
Just to be doubly sure, Tony, you're saying the official in the question is correct? Or I'm correct in thinking that the official got it wrong in both questions? Sounds like I'm correct, but I just want to be sure.
You are correct.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 03, 2005, 11:19pm
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a little nitpicky, but hopefully helpful

Chuck,
I agree that YOU are correct on #1. TWO team fouls against and ONE indirect to the head coach of Team A and only TWO FTs for Team B, plus ball at division line.

However, (and I only point this out in an attempt to help your instruction duties) in #2 please use "offender" rather than "participant" in your reasoning for the techincal fouls because the question does not say that either Coach B or B6 actually participate in the fight, merely that they enter the court.
This may be a small distinction, but the Summary of Penalties for All Fouls on pages 67 and 68 does it that way. I'm refering to the grouping of 8b (1) and (2).
Since you are going to be using these for teaching purposes, I thought that you would want to be as precise as possible for your student officials.

It also seems to me that part 8b of that summary doesn't really address the coaches. Although, it does mention "Bench personnel," which we know includes the coaches by 4-34-2, it specifies, "all players leaving [the] bench" in part (1) and "for each bench player participating in the fight" in part (2). This seems to be important because it would be very difficult to justify the FOUR FTs using only 8b(1). One could very easily conclude that only TWO FTs are warranted using what it says there. This could definitely lead to confusion for newer officials.

So while I have to say that this section is helpful in clarifying how to assess the penalties when dealing with different numbers of people leaving the bench, it is not well-written. I object greatly to the use of the term "bench player" therein. That term simply doesn't exist within NFHS rules. (Players [the five who are legally on the court], team members, and bench personnel are the only proper terms.) Also, it seems to forget about the coaches. I would like to see the NFHS reword this passage.

Therefore, I recommend also pointing your newer officials to 10-4-2 and its penalty section along with 10-5-2 and the accompanying penalty section. (Plus the chart on page 73 has both a Bench Personnel square and a Head coach box.)

These clearly state that it is illegal for the coaches, managers, and other members of bench personnel (such as statisticians or trainers) to enter the court during an altercation or fight and fully justify the additional two FTs in that are awarded in question #2 resulting in a total of FOUR FTs for Team A.
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