New "AP Legal Touch" Rule/Different Interpretation

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay CoachP, I will play along. You feel because of the kicking violation, you shouldn't lose possession.

No, team A now has a throw in for the kicking violation per new rule.

Originally Posted by Old School

Now, the AP doesn't switch after a sucessful throw-in if the defense kicks the ball first. Next held ball, same team keeps. Do you understand my problem with this rule?

Correct, because the throw in is now for the kicking violation. Next held ball remains with A because they never had an AP throw-in yet.

Originally Posted by Old School

Next held ball, same team keeps. Do you understand my problem with this rule? If not consider this:

1st quarter, AP pointed to Team A.
Held ball, APTI to Team A
On the throw-in, kick ball Team B, Team A inbounds again.
New rule, Team A keeps AP even after successful TI because Team B kicked ball first.
2nd quarter, no held balls, team A inbounds because AP never changed
Team B kicks ball on start of 2nd quarter inbound which also happens to be the APTI.
Team A successfully inbounds after kick ball, arrow don't switch again because of new rule.
3rd quarter, no held balls, Team A gets possession again.

1st quarter, AP pointed to Team A.

Held ball, APTI to Team A.

A1 ready to throw in, team B's coach, CoachP, calls Jurassic an old fart, and gets T'd. Team A shoots 2 free throws then inbounds again at half court.

Team A keeps AP even after successful TI because of Team B's Technical.

2nd quarter, team A inbounds because AP never changed.
Team B's coach, CoachP calls Rut a homer on start of 2nd quarter inbound which also happens to be the APTI. CoachP gets tossed, Mrs CoachP takes over. Team A shoots 2 free throws then inbounds again at half court.
Team A successfully inbounds after FT's, arrow still doesn't switch because it was a technical foul throw-in.

Start 3rd quarter, there were no held balls, Team A gets (arrow) possession again.
Arrow hasn't changed since opening tip.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm beginning to see the problem here. You guys and the rulemakers are caught up on the wording here, no you are twisted up on the wording.

Yup, we all insist on calling the rule the way that it was written and intended to be called.

Stupid us......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Completely and utterly wrong. Again. Look it up.

Casebook play 6.4.5SitB?

That's the one where the thrower holds the ball through the plane and a defender ties it up before the ball is released on the throw-in. In that situation, the throwing team keeps the arrow on the held ball.

Ya think maybe that one might keep Old School going for another 5 pages or so trying to figure out why?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Casebook play 6.4.5SitB?

That's the one where the thrower holds the ball through the plane and a defender ties it up before the ball is released on the throw-in. In that situation, the throwing team keeps the arrow on the held ball.

Ya think maybe that one might keep Old School going for another 5 pages or so trying to figure out why?

Aw, geeze, I can't even tell you where to go, because you're already there!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

I disagree with this statement right here. If the ball was tied-up on a APTI, the team inbounding would keep the possession. That is the way I understand this rule before the change.

On which rule or case do you base this statement?

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Old School

Coach, what has team B gained? Team A still has the ball for the throw-in and the way the rule is currently written (before this years change), if the ball was tied up again, the AP would stay with Team A because they never successfully inbounded the ball. That is the way the rule stands before this change.

After the change, the AP is permanently kept with Team A because of Team B's violation or kicked ball. Now, I don't even try to go for the steal on the inbound so that I don't accidentally set the arrow permanent for Team A. I have to let Team A inbound the ball and then I go for the steal because if I accidentally kicked the ball or there's a violation, I get double jeopardy. I get the penalty for the violation and the AP is now null and void. Stays with team A.

I don't know if you can permanently try to kick the ball like you are suggesting. If the pass is a bounce pass, then I can try and kick it to steal it, but if it's a pass, I can't kick it, which I'm trying to say, I don't think a team intentionally tries to do this or utilized this strategy to gain the arrow. Am I wrong here?

The defense cannot, by rule, kick the ball as part of a legitimate steal attempt. If you are letting those plays go in your games, I truly pity those who participate in the games you call. However, I hope you really do call those violations as they occur in your games.

Kicking the ball has always been a violation. Sometimes the defense will attempt to kick a passed ball because they are out of position and realize the only way to prevent the offensive play is to kick the ball. In that sense, kicking the ball could be a good defensive strategy. By doing this the defense gets a huge advantage because the play is now broken up and the defense gets to set up. At the same time the rules say using this ploy of kicking the ball is a violation and the offesive team will get the ball for a throw-in.

It is okay to be of the opinion that the rule should change as it is now written. I am sure the rules committee has many healthy discussions because members have differing opinions about specific situations (such as this one). At the same time, we should have the moral integrity to call the game the way the rules are written and not the way we would like them to be written. As refs, we should sustain the rules. But, we can endeavor to suggest change as opportunity arises.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Old School

This is where I argue the rule doesn't stand up to criterism.

For some reason this always cracks me up. Thanks JMO!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Correct, because the throw in is now for the kicking violation. Next held ball remains with A because they never had an AP throw-in yet.

Okay, so for a kicking violation we now null and void the AP. Consider this, base line APTI. Players line up, ball put in play, offense does that weave that after several rotations has a player coming to the basket for an open uncontested layup. Pass is a bounce pass which I stick my leg out to defend and kick the ball back OOB. I don't kick the ball, teams got a easy score, even worse a open layup. You know what type of play I'm talking about. This is preventing a score, which is what the defense is taught to do. Remember, the Intent and Purpose of the rule. The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a BALANCE OF FAIR PLAY, TO PROVIDE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN THE OFFENSE AND THE DEFENSE.

According to the rules, which the brain wizards are twisted up on. Knocking the ball OOB with my hand is a violation, just like kicking the ball is a violation. Why are we punishing one violation more than the other when both are legitimate defensive tackics, defensive manuvers. If I can prevent an easy score, I'm kicking the ball. Another example; if we got a 3 on 1 fast break and I kick the ball as the lone defensive player back. I just broke up a fast break bucket! That's great defense! That's an athletic and intelligent play, but now, we want to add an additional penality to it. The AP is now null and void. What's next, because I kicked the ball on the 3 on 1 fastbreak, let's award one point, or how about, let's force the inbound of the 3 on 1 kick ball violation on the F/B to only 1 defender in Team A frontcourt and 3 offensive players, so that the offense is giving an advantage from the defense kicking the ball. Where does it end.....

[Old School]

Originally Posted by CoachP

1st quarter, AP pointed to Team A.
Held ball, APTI to Team A.
A1 ready to throw in, team B's coach, CoachP, calls Jurassic an old fart, and gets T'd.

First of all, that is not a T. You can't give a T to something that is true, but let's continue....

Originally Posted by CoachP

Team A shoots 2 free throws then inbounds again at half court.
Team A keeps AP even after successful TI because of Team B's Technical.

Got news for you coach, doesn't matter which teams committs the technical. Arrow is not switched.

Originally Posted by CoachP

2nd quarter, team A inbounds because AP never changed.
Team B's coach, CoachP calls Rut a homer on start of 2nd quarter inbound which also happens to be the APTI. CoachP gets tossed, Mrs CoachP takes over.

#1, in my game and you said that about JRUT, I would say he's also a smart azz who thinks he's god gift to officating, but what else is new. Not giving a T for a coach speaking his mind in the heat of battle. Continuing on....

Originally Posted by CoachP

Team A shoots 2 free throws then inbounds again at half court. Team A successfully inbounds after FT's, arrow still doesn't switch because it was a technical foul throw-in. Start 3rd quarter, there were no held balls, Team A gets (arrow) possession again. Arrow hasn't changed since opening tip.....

To be honest, I didn't know this was there. Thanks for sharing the examples with me. I think it might be from the multiple games in a day where we must keep the possession. We just try and make sure we don't forget to switch it, much less these little details. I will start to look for it more in my suimmer leagues games.

A couple of notes; ANY foul that occurs before the APTI ends, by either team, does not cause a AP arrow change. Last, I would like to point you to Case Play 6.4.1: A team should never be given two successive APTI.....

Hold the phone! As the famous Ninja Turtle would say. It's right there written in the rules. I rest my case......

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

A couple of notes; ANY foul that occurs before the APTI ends, by either team, does not cause a AP arrow change. Last, I would like to point you to Case Play 6.4.1: A team should never be given two successive APTI.....

Hold the phone! As the famous Ninja Turtle would say. It's right there written in the rules. I rest my case......

The porch light is on, but nobody's home.

Silly monkey.....

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, so for a kicking violation we now null and void the AP. Consider this, base line APTI. Players line up, ball put in play, offense does that weave that after several rotations has a player coming to the basket for an open uncontested layup. Pass is a bounce pass which I stick my leg out to defend and kick the ball back OOB. I don't kick the ball, teams got a easy score, even worse a open layup. You know what type of play I'm talking about. This is preventing a score, which is what the defense is taught to do. Remember, the Intent and Purpose of the rule. The restrictions which the rules place upon the players are intended to create a BALANCE OF FAIR PLAY, TO PROVIDE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN THE OFFENSE AND THE DEFENSE.

According to the rules, which the brain wizards are twisted up on. Knocking the ball OOB with my hand is a violation, just like kicking the ball is a violation. Why are we punishing one violation more than the other when both are legitimate defensive tackics, defensive manuvers. If I can prevent an easy score, I'm kicking the ball. Another example; if we got a 3 on 1 fast break and I kick the ball as the lone defensive player back. I just broke up a fast break bucket! That's great defense! That's an athletic and intelligent play, but now, we want to add an additional penality to it. The AP is now null and void. What's next, because I kicked the ball on the 3 on 1 fastbreak, let's award one point, or how about, let's force the inbound of the 3 on 1 kick ball violation on the F/B to only 1 defender in Team A frontcourt and 3 offensive players, so that the offense is giving an advantage from the defense kicking the ball. Where does it end.....

Sigh........After either violation by B1 (a kick or a slap OOB), A1 gets the ball to throw in.

Case 1 (A with an AP throw in): B1 "legally" slaps ball OOB. A1 gets another Throw-in, but B now gets the arrow.
Case 2 (A with an AP throw in): B1 "illegally" kicks the ball. A1 gets another throw-in. A keeps the arrow.

Why punish "A" for something B committed illegally?

And it is true, B1 may slap the ball with his hand away from A1 on a layup, or kick it away. Both stopped the easy bucket. Except kicking is a violation, ball is dead, and A retains possesion. B1 slapping ball away from A1 with with his hand keeps the ball live with a chance for B1-5 to recover it. THAT's great defense.....

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Old School

Got news for you coach, doesn't matter which teams committs the technical. Arrow is not switched.

I didn't switch it.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Old School

A couple of notes; ANY foul that occurs before the APTI ends, by either team, does not cause a AP arrow change.

So tell me, by rule, when does the APTI throw in end?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Sigh........After either violation by B1 (a kick or a slap OOB), A1 gets the ball to throw in.

Case 1 (A with an AP throw in): B1 "legally" slaps ball OOB. A1 gets another Throw-in, but B now gets the arrow.

Excuse me coach, not to be argumentative but it is not legal to slap the ball OOB. Rule 9 Violations and Penalties Section 3 Art. 1 says a player shall not cause the ball to go OOB. So, it is an illegal act to slap the ball OOB, it is a violation by rule. You say it is LEGAL, I say it is not. I am supported by the definition in the rule book. You base your argument (which btw is a legitimate argument) that you should not lose the arrow on a kick ball violation. I agree you shouldn’t. So how do we define this in writing. Very simple. The APTI does not end on an OOB violation by the defense.

For example; the ability to run the endline on an inbound after a made basket doesn’t end if I (the defense) should kick the ball on the inbound. I still have the ability to run the endline after the kicking violation. However, if I reach in and foul, that’s a different story.

BTW, remember that the AP replaced the jump ball. So in the event of a held ball, either team has a FAIR chance to receive possession. Fast forward that to the current APTI, we have done away with the fair chance or fair play of the situation. We have circumvented the jump ball/AP rule to something that doesn't even resemble what the original intent of the rule was. Now that the arrow is in your favor, defense doesn't have a fair chance to play the ball, because if I should happen to kick the ball, you get to keep the arrow for the next held ball. That’s BS.

Originally Posted by CoachP

Case 2 (A with an AP throw in): B1 "illegally" kicks the ball. A1 gets another throw-in. A keeps the arrow.

Why punish "A" for something B committed illegally?

How about I rephrase your question. Why terminate the APTI when legal possession was never obtained and the same team is still inbounding the ball? Why? It matters not that I kick it OOB or legally slap it OOB (which btw, is an illegal act by rule). Unless we have a foul, we should still be under the APTI. Just like I can't have a kick ball violation if I'm tossing the ball in the air on the jump, center circle. However, if I foul or slap it OOB on or after my jump toss, possession is obtained to my opponent legally. The difference is, I have a fair chance to get possession on the next held ball.

I think we are over administering the APTI.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) Excuse me coach, not to be argumentative but it is not legal to slap the ball OOB. Rule 9 Violations and Penalties Section 3 Art. 1 says a player shall not cause the ball to go OOB. So, it is an illegal act to slap the ball OOB, it is a violation by rule.

Again, and as always, you don't understand rules basics. You also completely fail to understand what you are being told.

Slapping the ball is NOT a violation. Making the ball go OOB is a violation, but whether the ball was "slapped" or not hasn't got a damn thing to do with that violation. They're completely DIFFERENT and SEPARATE acts. Slapping = legal. Making the ball go OOB = illegal. They aren't the same damn thing.

The LEGAL slap ended the throw-in.

SLAPPING THE BALL IS NOT A VIOLATION!!

Deliberately kicking the ball IS a violation. Accidentally kicking the ball is NOT a violation. Accidentally kicking the ball OOB IS a violation, but the violation is for making the ball go OOB, not accidentally kicking it.

You just don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about, but you absolutely refuse to shut your mouth and try to learn something instead.

Silly monkey....