gps-6-rebounding

[112448]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Mark - Where do you get this concept? The rule book differentiates between contact that is incidental and contact that is illegal. It even allows that incidental contact may be severe in nature. In other words, contact is accepted as part of the game - how can this game then be considered non contact??? If this was a non-contact sport, no contact (no matter how slight) would be incidental. If your pinky touches me, we have to stop play because that is contact.

However, in the interest of full disclosure, I must also say that I struggle with the blanket statement that the rule book provides guidelines. It does not - it gives rules. The problem with fouls is that the rules are not as clear as something like an OOB violation (i.e., you step on the line - you violated - pretty obvious). The incidental contact provisions allow (in fact require) referees to exercise judgement. Many (most?) other rules in the book are not like this at all.

Contact is expected on every possession of any good game, and occurs on every half-court possession of any good game. The ref must determine when that contact is such that it becomes a foul. That determination cannot be made from the rule book, because the dividing line is not clear by rule. It is determined by experience, by observing other refs call games, seeing what seems to make a game flow well, and learning from all of this what is incidental and what is a foul. And while no two refs may see it exactly alike, there is a range that refs should remain within. If you are way out there either way, not too many people are going to be happy with the games you call. And those games are liable to be uglier than the average game for that level of play.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks Coach!

Jake

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Hawks Coach, whether the game is physical or not has nothing to do with my statement. Players sometimes play out of control or try to do things that they are not capable of doing and everybody wants to blame the officials for all the fouls that are committed.

My H.S. coach won 378 games in 21 years and 15 league championships. He was also registered H.S. basketball official during those years. And he always told us that an official never commits a foul or a violation, or misses a field goal or free throw attempt, or makes a turnover; the players do all of those things and the officials are the people responsible for seeing that rules infractions are called. He also said the no official ever won or lost a game for a team.

With regard to incidental contact. I never said that contact does not happen during a basketball game. When there is contact it is either incidental or it is a foul.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Hawks Coach, whether the game is physical or not has nothing to do with my statement. Players sometimes play out of control or try to do things that they are not capable of doing and everybody wants to blame the officials for all the fouls that are committed.

One more time Mark, since you just do not get it. The calls that were being made were phantom fouls. The refs didn't commit them, but neither did the players. Players were not out of control, were not reaching, were just playing a normal game of ball, and the whistle was the only thing on the court out of control. I'm sorry if you have a hard time accepting that this happens, but it does. I'm glad it does not happen often. Because it makes it impossible to have a good game of ball, period.

As for your coach's comment, I agree 100%. That is exactly what I said my philosophy. I never allow our players to blame the refs, even if I think that they did a poor job. I never let my players know that I think the refs are doing a poor job. That's simply an excuse to lose. And in this particular case, I wasn't complaining about the refs taking one from us. From where I sat, it seemed that they were doing everything in their power to give it to us by sending us to the line.

And, by the way, I do believe that you can blame refs for allowing a situation to become ugly by not managing a game properly (too many whistles, too few, poor communication, lack of awareness, etc.). You folks control the action on the floor. I never blame the refs for the final score, but poorly managed (by the ref) games will almost always be bad games, regardless of how the players want to play it. I haven't had many, but those I have had, I have hated and only wanted them to end.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When a officiating crew has to call a lot fouls, it is never the players' fault, it is the officials' fault for "not" letting the players play.

Coach, I think that it is time for you to become a basketball official. Please look up IAABO Board #12 District of Columbia and Montgomery Co., MD) or #134 (southern Maryland). The good people in those Boards would love to have you take the officiating class next school year.

[Mark Dexter]

If he goes to board 12, maybe we'll be in the same class .

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
When a officiating crew has to call a lot fouls, it is never the players' fault, it is the officials' fault for "not" letting the players play.

Coach, I think that it is time for you to become a basketball official. Please look up IAABO Board #12 District of Columbia and Montgomery Co., MD) or #134 (southern Maryland). The good people in those Boards would love to have you take the officiating class next school year.

Again, not what I am saying. If fouls are being committed call them. End of subject. I have never complained about that. I guess you will never admit that an official can have one awful game in 100, or that 2 officials out of 100 could have a tendency to call games poorly, and when they get paired up, the game goes badly because the refs can't keep up with the level of play. That was my only point. But in your mind, officials can never be at fault for anything that happens on the court.

As I explained before, with a family (wife, two kids) that doesn't participate in basketball, a full-time job, a part-time career as a Navy Reservist, and a coaching schedule of 100 games a year, you won't see me in stripes any time soon. But I have attended rules clinics and participate in boards like these so I can better understand the game.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Again, not what I am saying. If fouls are being committed call them. End of subject. I have never complained about that. I guess you will never admit that an official can have one awful game in 100, or that 2 officials out of 100 could have a tendency to call games poorly, and when they get paired up, the game goes badly because the refs can't keep up with the level of play. That was my only point. But in your mind, officials can never be at fault for anything that happens on the court.

As I explained before, with a family (wife, two kids) that doesn't participate in basketball, a full-time job, a part-time career as a Navy Reservist, and a coaching schedule of 100 games a year, you won't see me in stripes any time soon. But I have attended rules clinics and participate in boards like these so I can better understand the game.

Coach,
Don't feel the need to defend yourself.
Most everyone here can read and understand what kind of game you work.
mick

[crew]

on hoopsref.com/forums joe forte has addressed this issue very well. he has more credibility than i or any oneelse that i know. the forum is very similar to this one just not as well known. (only deals with basketball though)

[mick]

Originally posted by crew
on hoopsref.com/forums joe forte has addressed this issue very well. he has more credibility than i or any oneelse that i know. the forum is very similar to this one just not as well known. (only deals with basketball though)

crew,
That new forum has a chance. I understand there are some good posters there.
This forum was very underused two years ago.
Who is Joe Forte and what makes him more credible than you?
mick

[crew]

joe forte. former nc2a d1 official worked the finals a couple of times in the 80's. has worked the gold medal game in the olympics. has worked in the nba since 88, and has also officiated the finals there. he is currently the only official to ever accomplish the grand slam in officiating.(highschool finals, nc2a,nba,olympics) he is a very resourceful official and give great info on the site. he is a great promoter of officiating.

[mick]

Originally posted by crew
joe forte. former nc2a d1 official worked the finals a couple of times in the 80's. has worked the gold medal game in the olympics. has worked in the nba since 88, and has also officiated the finals there. he is currently the only official to ever accomplish the grand slam in officiating.(highschool finals, nc2a,nba,olympics) he is a very resourceful official and give great info on the site. he is a great promoter of officiating.

Oh, my!
Seems like a guy oughta visit there.
Thanks, crew.