What is the correct procedure?

[Jurassic Referee]

Yup, all the same old lame arguments. And all the same old lame arguers insisting they're right without being able to offer any definitive rules backing for it.

Iow, same old, same old.......

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, all the same old lame arguments. And all the same old lame arguers insisting they're right without being able to offer any definitive rules backing for it.

Iow, same old, same old.......

JR:

What was lame about Camron's latest post. He quoted all the pertinent rules that apply to this play. And these are the same rules that I have also quoted in a previous thread. The rules are clear in this case. There is no do over whether it is NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA in this play.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

What was lame about Camron's latest post. He quoted all the pertinent rules that apply to this play. And these are the same rules that I have also quoted in a previous thread. The rules are clear in this case. There is no do over whether it is NFHS, NCAA, or FIBA in this play.

MTD, Sr.

I still completely disagree with you, Camron and Filibuster Freddy from Nevada, as well as anybody else that agrees with y'all. The rules that Camron cited are neither pertinent or relevant to this particular situation. You want to move the ball 60 feet or so up the court while saying that it took ZERO seconds to actually move the ball up those 60 feet. Heckuva idea.

The play is simply not definitively covered under NFHS rules. If you, Camron or anyone else wants to argue this for another 20 pages, hey, be my guest. Imo it's probably easier to dig up all the old, identical threads to this and read them, but hey, if you want to resurrect all the old inconclusive arguments, go ahead. WOBW though imo.

Same sh!t, different day......

[OHBBREF]

JR - Since the ball was in the back court there should have been a count so they seem to be talking about putting the ball in play at the spot of the dead ball with that time off the clock. I do not see a problem with that!

I do have a problem with do overs period-

Dave - I agree with Mark and Nevada here this is a game managment issue and I would in absence of specific NFHS coverage of the situation use the NCAA direction for this situation it is the simplest and fairest way to put the ball back in play and noone in the arena but you and your partner(s) knows if there was DEFINATE knowledge of the time that ran off the clock or not.

Discuss it - put the ball at the OOB point when the ball became dead and take time off the clock. Then Tasser the "Timer" and move on.

As a side note - I was instructed by a DIII assignor that when doing this it is better to give a number such as 10:28 - rather than 10:25 or 10:30 it gives the impression that you are on top of the situation rather than taking a guess.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

As a side note - I was instructed by a DIII assignor that when doing this it is better to give a number such as 10:28 - rather than 10:25 or 10:30 it gives the impression that you are on top of the situation rather than taking a guess.

I don't agree with this whatsoever. You put up the time that should be up. You don't add seconds or remove seconds to make it look better.

For every 5 times this happens, there is a 20% chance that the time to put on the clock ends in a 5 or a 0. It will happen that 10:30 is the correct time to put on the clock.

Back when I was doing provincial championships, a power-that-be told me to always put up an odd number - it looks more accurate. Back then I believed that philosophy. Now I think it's hogwash. You put up what it is. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

You put up the time that should be up. You don't add seconds or remove seconds to make it look better.

This assumes that you know the time that should be up. There are people who will say that even if you don't have definite knowledge, you should make up a number when the clock has obviously screwed up. And when you make up the number, you should not give a number that ends in 0 or 5, because it looks like you're just making it up. Those folks figure it's ok to make it up, as long as nobody knows that you're making it up.

[JugglingReferee]

What interests me is that when you take off x seconds - you're on average really taking off x.49 (9 repeating) seconds.

Here's my justification, for certain clocks:

When the display changes from 8:00 to 7:59 immediately at the beginning of a quarter, and not a second after the clock is started, there is really 7:59.99, .98, .97, .96, you get the idea remaining in the quarter. The upper limit is 7:59.9 (9 repeating). The lower limit is 7:59.0 exactly.

That difference is almost 1 full second. If the clock says 3:45 and you have to remove 6 seconds, then you are changing the clock to read 3:39 - which I'm certain the clock interprets as 3:39.0. If the clock memory is 3:45.98, then the resetting loses .98 seconds.

If you think that .98 seconds isn't much, ask Christian Laettner, Michael Jordan, or even the 1972 US Olympic team.

Edit:

I will propose a second auxiliary button on a scoreclock: Adjust. User presses Adjust, then 1 to remove seconds (or 3 to add), then the number of seconds to adjust the clock by.

My first additional button is called Factor. It works like this: you press Factor, then two digits such as 85, then Factor again. This tells the clock to remove a second from the display (and internal memory) every 0.85 seconds. Used in a blowout only, you can save 288s, or 4min 48s!!

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I don't agree with this whatsoever. You put up the time that should be up. You don't add seconds or remove seconds to make it look better. [/U]

This philosphy only applies when there is not definate knowledge

With definate knowledge that it should be 10:38 you put 10:38 on the clock - if there is definate knowledge that it should be 10:40 then that is what you put on the clock.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

This philosphy only applies when there is not definite knowledge

Sticky because by rule (I believe) we're not allowed to do that.

Dan's post is interesting.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The play is simply not definitively covered under NFHS rules.

I'm not going to get in the middle of this except to say that I think it IS covered definitively by the rules -- but poorly. Camron's argument is not debatable, IMHO. Ball's dead, team control, no foul = nearest spot.

That is a bad and unfair result, but it's the result that is dictated by the throw-in rules. Again, JMHO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not going to get in the middle of this except to say that I think it IS covered definitively by the rules -- but poorly. Camron's argument is not debatable, IMHO. Ball's dead, team control, no foul = nearest spot.

That is a bad and unfair result, but it's the result that is dictated by the throw-in rules. Again, JMHO.

Skippy, with all due respect.....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I still completely disagree with you, Camron and Filibuster Freddy from Nevada, as well as anybody else that agrees with y'all. The rules that Camron cited are neither pertinent or relevant to this particular situation. You want to move the ball 60 feet or so up the court while saying that it took ZERO seconds to actually move the ball up those 60 feet. Heckuva idea.

The play is simply not definitively covered under NFHS rules. If you, Camron or anyone else wants to argue this for another 20 pages, hey, be my guest. Imo it's probably easier to dig up all the old, identical threads to this and read them, but hey, if you want to resurrect all the old inconclusive arguments, go ahead. WOBW though imo.

Same sh!t, different day......

Oh, I finally see what you're grumbling about.

In this play you simply can't magically move the ball to mid court without taking *some* time off the clock.

OTOH you cannot have a "do-over" by putting the ball back on the endline.

That leaves 1 answer: decide how much time to take off & put the ball where it was when you finally woke up & realized the clock never started.