New AP arrow rule

[CoachP]

New thread…just to see if I got it. I don’t want to interrupt the flow of the other one!

1)
Arrow points to Team A
A1 throws ball into play, B1 kicks the ball OOB.
Team A gets another throw in.
But the new throw in is because of the kick violation.
A1 throws in again.
A2 gains possession.
Arrow remains pointed at Team A because of new rule where AP throw in never was completed.
Correct?

2)
B1 fouls A1 for 6th team foul.
A1 inbounds and B2 and A2 catch ball at the same time, whistle, held ball.
(clock man ran 2 seconds off)
Arrow is pointing to Team A.
Team A to throw in.
A1 throws ball into play, B1 jumps and kicks the ball OOB.
But clock man didn't start the clock because the kick/whistle was too fast.
Team A gets another throw in.
But the new throw in is because of the kick violation.
Official hands A1 the ball.
While A1 has ball, scorekeeper realizes it was team B’s 7th foul and sounds horn and alerts official. What happens?


a)Do the Officials give A1 his one and one with lanes cleared, and then go back to throw in for the kick violation and the arrow will remain with Team A after the throw in is complete?

b)Or do we say the clock "should" have started therefore negating the FT's? (with the arrow staying with Team A after the throw in of course)

c) or????

[truerookie]

1)> Correct

2).Since we had a held ball A will get the throw-in for the AP. Then we had a kick ball violation because the ball was not legally inbounded. This will become a DS throw-in.

Now since the official (s) were notified of the foul situation. We will shoot the bonus with lane cleared and then proceed back to POI which is the DS throw-in due to the kicking violation.

[blindzebra]

It's A's ball for the kick, arrow stays with A, error is no longer correctable.

The time not running a second time doesn't matter. You had an error, live ball, time off and a second live ball before it was discovered.

Had it been correctable, there wasn't a change of possession so we'd line up for the FTs. Arrow would stay with team A.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by truerookie

then proceed back to POI which is the DS throw-in due to the kicking violation.

first off it is not correctable - foul, (failure to award)
A1 has ball for throw in (live ball) throws in 2 seconds ran off for held ball
(Dead ball after whistle) Must be recognized here (first dead ball after clock ran)
A1 has ball for throw in (live ball) ball inbounded and kicked

Now if it were correctable it is the only time you do not return to POI
restart for the awarding of a Merited free throw without change of possession you would shoot the Free throws and play on.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by CoachP

New thread…just to see if I got it. I don’t want to interrupt the flow of the other one!

1)
Arrow points to Team A
A1 throws ball into play, B1 kicks the ball OOB.
Team A gets another throw in.
But the new throw in is because of the kick violation.
A1 throws in again.
A2 gains possession.
Arrow remains pointed at Team A because of new rule where AP throw in never was completed.
Correct?

Correct.

Originally Posted by CoachP

2)
B1 fouls A1 for 6th team foul.
A1 inbounds and B2 and A2 catch ball at the same time, whistle, held ball.
(clock man ran 2 seconds off)
Arrow is pointing to Team A.
Team A to throw in.
A1 throws ball into play, B1 jumps and kicks the ball OOB.
But clock man didn't start the clock because the kick/whistle was too fast.
Team A gets another throw in.
But the new throw in is because of the kick violation.
Official hands A1 the ball.
While A1 has ball, scorekeeper realizes it was team B’s 7th foul and sounds horn and alerts official. What happens?


a)Do the Officials give A1 his one and one with lanes cleared, and then go back to throw in for the kick violation and the arrow will remain with Team A after the throw in is complete?

b)Or do we say the clock "should" have started therefore negating the FT's? (with the arrow staying with Team A after the throw in of course)

c) or????

Correcting my statment....

It is not correctable. The error occurred during a dead ball. The clock started (during the throwin which led to a held ball). The ball became dead (held ball). The ball became live again (on the throwin that ended with a kick). This live ball was the end of the correctable window.

Ignoring the fact that it is now past the correctable window and assuming it was still correctable...Possession didn't change (a held ball alone is not sufficient for a change of possession) between the point of the error and the recognition of the error, A1 would get the 1+1 with rebounders along the lane and the game continues normally as if the 1+1 was administered correctly the first time. A retains the arrow.

[todd66]

No longer correctable due to second live ball. A keeps the arrow.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correct.




C. Since possession didn't change (a held ball alone is not sufficient for a change of possession) between the point of the error and the recognition of the error, A1 gets the 1+1 with rebounders along the lane and the game continues normally as if the 1+1 was administered correctly the first time. A retains the arrow.

Really?

We had 2 live balls and time off before it was discovered.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Really?

We had 2 live balls and time off before it was discovered.

No. I misread it and have corrected my statement.

[Mark Dexter]

I'm going to echo BlindZebra - all that matters here is the second live ball.

In addition, a quick comment of my own. Most of us at the table don't like being called "clock man" - the better term is timer (especially with the wimmen - they REALLY don't like being called clock man!)

[BktBallRef]

Thanks clock girl.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Thanks clock girl.

That should be "clock woman". He's a graduate now, you know.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That should be "clock woman". He's a graduate now, you know.

Actually getting an M.S., too, soon.

Does that mean I have to become a clock mistress?

[Nevadaref]

I believe that what the OP intended to probe is an interesting issue. Should the clock start on the kick or not? How does an error by the timer affect the correctable error rule?
We know that the NCAA rules state that the clock is started when the ball is "legally touched," but under NFHS rules the current wording is simply "touches, or is touched by," with the exception of 5-9-2 which does match the NCAA rule and includes the word "legally."

NCAA
Rule 5

Section 13. Time is Out—Start Game Clock

Art. 1.

After time has been out, the game clock shall be started when the
official signals time in. When the official neglects to signal, the official timer
shall be authorized to start the game clock unless an official specifically
signals that time shall continue to be out.

Art. 2.

When play is started by a jump ball, the game clock shall be started
when the tossed ball is legally touched.

Art. 3.

When a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the
game clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by or touches a
player on the playing court.

Art. 4.

When play is resumed by a throw-in, the game clock and shot clock
shall be started when the ball is legally touched by or touches a player on

the playing court.

NFHS
Rule 5
SECTION 9 RE-STARTING THE CLOCK
ART. 1 . . . After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.
ART. 2 . . . If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
ART. 4 . . . If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

Now let's alter the scenario from above to allow us to get at the issue.
A1 and B1 create a held ball. The arrow favors Team A. A3 is handed the ball for the throw-in and before he can release it on a pass B2 is whistled for fouling A1. At this time it is believed that this is Team B's sixth foul of the half. A3 is therefore awarded the ball OOB for another throw-in. Very quickly after the ball is thrown it is kicked by B4. The timer does NOT start the clock, and therefore no time has run off. A3 is again awarded a throw-in and he complete this one to A2. The clock is started, and after four seconds B5 creates a held ball with A2. During this dead ball the officials are informed that B2's foul was Team B's seventh of the half.

Questions:
1. Is the error still correctable? If so, what is the proper procedure for fixing it?
2. Which team does the AP arrow currently favor?
3. Should the clock have started on the kick?
4. Given the change to how a throw-in ends, should the NFHS also amend its timing rule to match the NCAA rule?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Actually getting an M.S., too, soon.

Is that the same as B.S., only piled higher? Does the M stand for "more"?

Inquiring minds need to know.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Is that the same as B.S., only piled higher? Does the M stand for "more"?

Inquiring minds need to know.

No.

PhD is piled higher & deeper.

MS is more of the same.