New AP throw in rule

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay moron, Referee steps in to toss the ball, tells all players to freeze or hold your positions, before tossing the ball or after tossing the ball, B4 takes off and runs towards his basket. Beep! violation on B4 Team A ball.

Taking off before the ball is tossed is not a violation.

Taking off after the toss is AFTER THE BALL IS LIVE, and therefore does not fit your previous scenario, nor is it a violation.

Upon the throw-in following this violation. B3 kicks the throw-in pass from A1 to A3. That's how it happens moron. But I'm just saying for arguments sake.

During this play, THE BALL IS LIVE! The ball is LIVE when you place the ball at the thrower's disposal.

You're truly clueless.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

BTW, if tis happens to me, I'm simply stopping and telling everyone to get set. It's a weak call IMHO.

In my example, I called it because the kid walked through the circle to take a new spot. Pretty obvious. Hard to ignore it when the R says "Hold your spots" and then the kid walks right by him.

Oh, and once again, I volunteer to delouse the forum by removing all OS's posts.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I know I am joining the fun very late in this thread, but when the thread first started I was in second day four straight days of officiating at team camps and I finally had the strength to read it just now. Boy, did I miss out on a lot of Old School bashing.

I've seen worse in some of my games. Makes me feel right at home here. On the court and on the forum, yep, right at home, right in the heat of the battle.

First, I want to commend everybody who did a fine job of giving Old School the business on this play. The play was not a difficult one but everybody knows how OS likes to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Or not give up on the play. What we have here, in the great words of Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate. I'm not communicating my position very well. I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either. Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense. If I try to steal the ball and cause a violation the AP is now null and void. Which means it doesn’t alternate.

Hold the phone! In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen. So to me, you guys have circumvented this rule into something it was not originally intended to do. By saying the AP is not complete until a successful throw in, is wrong and at the heart of the argument. Maybe if you guys could quit hating on the messenger and start focusing on the issue, we might have come up with a resolution by now, instead of blindly following the rules into oblivion. Isn’t that what Jim Jones recommended, just drink the kool-aid. No, this rule has some issues and so does that kool-aid.

First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done.

What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful. The AP should just guarantee you possession, not a successful throw-in. Once I hand the player the ball, the AP has done it’s job. Now, in the event that we have another held ball on the throw-in. The AP will stay with the team currently inbounding, Team A. That makes since to me. Once we have a violation, the AP has ended. Not null and void but ended. Once the ball is inbounded, possession should now switch as in hence, alternating possession.

Just like in a jump ball. If you recover the ball from the jump you have possession. That possession is equivalent to me handing you the ball for the throw-in. What you do with it, is on you and we should not try to legislate the rules so that we help you get it inbounded successfully and reward you again with another AP from normal basketball play that carry's it's own punishment. That's too much big brother.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I've seen worse in some of my games. Makes me feel right at home here. On the court and on the forum, yep, right at home, right in the heat of the battle.

Or not give up on the play. What we have here, in the great words of Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate. I'm not communicating my position very well. I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either. Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense. If I try to steal the ball and cause a violation the AP is now null and void. Which means it doesn’t alternate.

Hold the phone! In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen. So to me, you guys have circumvented this rule into something it was not originally intended to do. By saying the AP is not complete until a successful throw in, is wrong and at the heart of the argument. Maybe if you guys could quit hating on the messenger and start focusing on the issue, we might have come up with a resolution by now, instead of blindly following the rules into oblivion. Isn’t that what Jim Jones recommended, just drink the kool-aid. No, this rule has some issues and so does that kool-aid.

First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done.

What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful. The AP should just guarantee you possession, not a successful throw-in. Once I hand the player the ball, the AP has done it’s job. Now, in the event that we have another held ball on the throw-in. The AP will stay with the team currently inbounding, Team A. That makes since to me. Once we have a violation, the AP has ended. Not null and void but ended. Once the ball is inbounded, possession should now switch as in hence, alternating possession.

Just like in a jump ball. If you recover the ball from the jump you have possession. That possession is equivalent to me handing you the ball for the throw-in. What you do with it, is on you and we should not try to legislate the rules so that we help you get it inbounded successfully and reward you again with another AP from normal basketball play that carry's it's own punishment. That's too much big brother.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either. Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense. If I try to steal the ball and cause a violation the AP is now null and void. Which means it doesn’t alternate.

Explain how illegally touching the ball is good defense. No one is arguing that team A should be able to complete a throwin to their team....just that team B can't cause team A to lose the arrow by by a violation....that is the ENTIRE purpose of the rule change.

Originally Posted by Old School

Hold the phone! In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen. So to me, you guys have circumvented this rule into something it was not originally intended to do. By saying the AP is not complete until a successful throw in, is wrong and at the heart of the argument.
...
First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done.

Again, it's not to guarantee success, just to guarantee that the defense can only stop it through legal means.

Originally Posted by Old School

What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful.

No. Team A loses the arrow anytime they violation during the AP throwin...yet another rule you don't know.

Originally Posted by Old School

The AP should just guarantee you possession, not a successful throw-in. Once I hand the player the ball, the AP has done it’s job.

Except that is not the rule...the AP hasn't done it's job until A gets the inbounds without a violation.

Originally Posted by Old School

Now, in the event that we have another held ball on the throw-in. The AP will stay with the team currently inbounding, Team A. That makes since to me. Once we have a violation, the AP has ended. Not null and void but ended. Once the ball is inbounded, possession should now switch as in hence, alternating possession.

Which happens first, the violation (kick) or the ball obtaining inbounds status? They happen at the same time. The rule effectively says to consider the violation as happening first.

Originally Posted by Old School

Just like in a jump ball. If you recover the ball from the jump you have possession. That possession is equivalent to me handing you the ball for the throw-in. What you do with it, is on you and we should not try to legislate the rules so that we help you get it inbounded successfully and reward you again with another AP from normal basketball play that carry's it's own punishment. That's too much big brother.

But the arrows is set when a player legally catches the ball after the jump.

Again, the rule doesn't guarantee you get it inbounds to your team...just that the defense can only cause the AP to end by legally touching the ball (even catching it)....not by kicking it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either. Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense.

2) In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen.

3) What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful. That makes since to me.

4) Not null and void but ended.

Sigh, where to start....

1) Who gives a flying fuk what any coach thinks? How many times do we have to tell you that? And what moron other than you would think that kicking the damn ball is "good defense"?

2) I defy anyone to translate that into English. There will be a reward offered.

3) Um, no. If there's a violation on the offensive team during an AP throw-in before that throw-in ends, the offensive team will lose that AP arrow. Sez so right in the rules. Another guess gone bad. Does that make any since to you?

4) You're null and void.

[M&M Guy]

...sigh...Ok, here goes:

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm not communicating my position very well.

Actually, you are. That's why you get so many negative responses.

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either.

There is no Fed. of coaches. There is the National Federation of State High School Associations, otherwise referred to here as NFHS, or the Fed. If that is what you are actually referring to, then you would be entirely wrong because the Fed./NFHS actually included this ruling in this year's changes.

Originally Posted by Old School

Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense.

In your words: Hold the phone! If the defense violates on the throw-in, it is not good defense. The reason for the ruling is you are punishing bad defense. How do you reason the defense kicking the ball is good defense?

Originally Posted by Old School

First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done. What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful..

This is one of the very statements that gets you in trouble, because it is flat-out wrong. The rules specifically say a violation by the throw-in team does in fact switch the arrow. See 6-4-4

Originally Posted by Old School

The AP should just guarantee you possession, not a successful throw-in.

Now, if that is an opinion, you are entitled to that opinion. If you are stating the rule and its intent, then you would be wrong. The definition of "Alternating Possession" in the rule book is, per 4-2-1: "Alternating possession is the method of putting the ball in play by a throw-in, as outlined in 6-4." In other words, it is a throw-in. If we go to rule 6-4-4, it says, "The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

If what you are advocating is a change in philosophy by the Fed., then you have a right to your opinion. We argue opinions on this site all the time, without ever getting personal. However, you communicate that the way we are to handle this situation is wrong, and that makes you wrong, per the rules.

One quality of all successful officials is the ability to communicate. We have to constantly communicate effectively, whether it's to report a foul or violation with our signals, talk to a coach or player during a game, or even communicate with our supervisors and AD's during a season. Please work on your communication skills.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

2) In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) I defy anyone to translate that into English. There will be a reward offered.

Damn, JR, now I have to clean my screen and get another soda!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

In my example, I called it because the kid walked through the circle to take a new spot. Pretty obvious. Hard to ignore it when the R says "Hold your spots" and then the kid walks right by him.

No need to defend it, nor does that change my opinion.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

I've seen worse in some of my games. Makes me feel right at home here. On the court and on the forum, yep, right at home, right in the heat of the battle.

Or not give up on the play. What we have here, in the great words of Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate. I'm not communicating my position very well. I don't think that the Fed. of coaches would agree with this ruling either. Team A receiving the AP multiple times in a row because of a violation on the inbound. IOW's, you punishing good defense. If I try to steal the ball and cause a violation the AP is now null and void. Which means it doesn’t alternate.

Hold the phone! In order for there to be a violation, the AP awarded me the ball for the throw-in. Without the arrow in my favor from the AP. The throw-in would never have happen. So to me, you guys have circumvented this rule into something it was not originally intended to do. By saying the AP is not complete until a successful throw in, is wrong and at the heart of the argument. Maybe if you guys could quit hating on the messenger and start focusing on the issue, we might have come up with a resolution by now, instead of blindly following the rules into oblivion. Isn’t that what Jim Jones recommended, just drink the kool-aid. No, this rule has some issues and so does that kool-aid.

First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done.

What happens if there’s a violation of the offensive team? Team B gets the ball and the AP stays with Team A because the throw-in was not successful. The AP should just guarantee you possession, not a successful throw-in. Once I hand the player the ball, the AP has done it’s job. Now, in the event that we have another held ball on the throw-in. The AP will stay with the team currently inbounding, Team A. That makes since to me. Once we have a violation, the AP has ended. Not null and void but ended. Once the ball is inbounded, possession should now switch as in hence, alternating possession.

Just like in a jump ball. If you recover the ball from the jump you have possession. That possession is equivalent to me handing you the ball for the throw-in. What you do with it, is on you and we should not try to legislate the rules so that we help you get it inbounded successfully and reward you again with another AP from normal basketball play that carry's it's own punishment. That's too much big brother.

OS:

I cannot believe how you can believe what you write. Not a single thing you have written in this thread makes sense or conforms to the rules of the game. I have tried and tried to be nice and lead you down the correct path and give you good advice to make you a better basketball official but you refuse to listen. Please, please stop posting until you learn the rules of the game. If you do not want to follow my advice you will only continue to make a fool of yourself.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

For MTD:


For OS:

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For MTD:

That's cute.

MTD, Sr.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm definitely willing to debate NCAA rules, but for right now, let's stick with HS. In NFHS, TF goes back to the team offended. We'll come back to NCAA because I'm curious how they handle this.

So in this case the Team a gets to keep the ball for the technical foul and would get to keep the AP arrow because the Throw in was not completed.
But under your Scenario they would lose the AP because Team B commited a delay of game violation!

Where in this scenario is there any logic. Reward the other team if they commit a rules infraction witht he AP arrow?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

What we have here, in the great words of Cool Hand Luke, is a failure to communicate. I'm not communicating my position very well.

Wrong again.

Cool Hand Luke did NOT say "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

The words were spoken by a prison guard captain in the movie.

As for you, you're communicating your postion as best you can. Unfortunately, you're wrong, as always.

[OHBBREF]

You specifically wanted to stick to the NFHS Rules for now:

Originally Posted by Old School

First, the AP grants you possession. It does not or should not guarantee you a successful throw-in. If there’s a violation of the throw-in, you don’t lose the ball anyway. You are now on to something else, like another spot throw-in. AP is now done.

Under NFHS there is NO TEAM CONTROL ON A THROW IN - so there is no possiession -therefore- by your own logic it does guarantee the COMPLETION of the throw in so that you have team control of the ball (posession).

Originally Posted by Old School

Now, in the event that we have another held ball on the throw-in. The AP will stay with the team currently inbounding, Team A. That makes since to me.

They get to keep the ball for the same reason that they get to keep the AP Arrow if the Defence commits a violation The AP throw in has not been completed!

Originally Posted by Old School

Just like in a jump ball. If you recover the ball from the jump you have possession. That possession is equivalent to me handing you the ball for the throw-in.

Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong - That possession establishes Team Control
NO TEAM CONTROL ON A THROW IN

Originally Posted by Old School

What you do with it, is on you and we should not try to legislate the rules so that we help you get it inbounded successfully and reward you again with another AP from normal basketball play that carry's it's own punishment.

So If on a non AP throw in A1 throws the pass toward A3 but B3 kicks the ball and it hits A3 then goes out of bounds it should be Team B ball ?

You are not being rewarded with a new AP if the defence violates they are being punished under the rules of the violation - (By the way violations and fouls IMO_ are not normal basketball plays that is why they carry penalties.)