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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:04pm
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Question New AP throw in rule

The National Federation of High Schools has changed it's rule 4-42-5 to read that the throw in ends when the throw in pass is "legally" touched by another player. After reading the comments on this change, it appears that the intent of this rule is not allow a team to lose their AP throw in because of a violation by the defense.

Here is a scenario. Please comment on whether this is the way this rule is to be interpreted. Team A has a AP throw in. The thrower releases the pass and a member to team B kicks the pass. Team B is called for the kicking violation and team A is given a spot throw in for the violation. Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.

Is this the correct interpretation?
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd66
The National Federation of High Schools has changed it's rule 4-42-5 to read that the throw in ends when the throw in pass is "legally" touched by another player. After reading the comments on this change, it appears that the intent of this rule is not allow a team to lose their AP throw in because of a violation by the defense.

Here is a scenario. Please comment on whether this is the way this rule is to be interpreted. Team A has a AP throw in. The thrower releases the pass and a member to team B kicks the pass. Team B is called for the kicking violation and team A is given a spot throw in for the violation. Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.

Is this the correct interpretation?
Yep.
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:40pm
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That doesn't make since!
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
That doesn't make since!
Since when?
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:44pm
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Here is a scenario. Please comment on whether this is the way this rule is to be interpreted. Team A has a AP throw in. The thrower releases the pass and a member to team B kicks the pass. Team B is called for the kicking violation and team A is given a spot throw in for the violation.

So a kicking violation by Team B on an AP throw-in results in a spot throw-in... doesn't that put Team A at a disadvantage??


Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.
Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?

Help me out.
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.
Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?
My thoughts exactly....
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:46pm
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I agree with M&M's interpretation of the rule, but I wonder about the rule's logic...

Assume that before the throw in Team B had the ball and B1 was involved in a jump ball situation. Team A is awarded the throw in on the AP, so Team B has now lost possession. In the OP, Team B then kicks the ball on the throw in, so the rule gives Team A the throw in because of the kick (not because of the jump ball) and leaves the AP arrow with Team A. If Team B has another jump ball on the their next possession, they lose the ball again on the AP. What is the logic in giving Team A the AP possession twice in a row in this type of situation?
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:53pm
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Ohhh okay, now I get it!
After the kicking violation on B, it is no longer an AP throw-in for A, it's a throw-in for that violation.

Thus the next time we go to the AP it remains with Team A since they never used it. That makes since...
Even though B can lose the AP twice in a row, it their own fault for kicking the ball. That's the ticket
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 03:59pm
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So if Team B reaches for the ball on the throw in, touches it with his/her hand, and then it drops and is kicked by Team B, the AP arrow changes? I still don't see the reason to differentiate between a violation that occurs as the first thing to happen after the throw in and one that occurs after the ball is "legally touched". Any comments?
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
So a kicking violation by Team B on an AP throw-in results in a spot throw-in... doesn't that put Team A at a disadvantage??
How does it put A at a disadvantage? B kicked the ball, A gets the ball OOB for a throw-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?
There has been discussion in the past about whether the arrow needed to be switched as soon as B kicked it on the initial throw-in. Now the Fed. is clarifying that the touch on the original AP throw-in has to be a legal touch. So, in the play mentioned, the initial AP throw-in was not completed, and therefore the arrow doesn't change. So the initial AP throw-in was not completed (arrow stays with A), the second throw-in is for the kicking violation, and the next time there is an AP throw-in A will get it.

Does that make sense?
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:07pm
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M&M Guy: Thanks for the clarification, but I already thought it through (see post#8).

When OS agreed with me, I decided that I needed to think harder. j/k
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
So if Team B reaches for the ball on the throw in, touches it with his/her hand, and then it drops and is kicked by Team B, the AP arrow changes? I still don't see the reason to differentiate between a violation that occurs as the first thing to happen after the throw in and one that occurs after the ball is "legally touched". Any comments?
You've got it.

That's why the discussion before this was interesting - on a kick, would the ball be legally touched (for a fraction of a second), then the violation? Or is the kick a violation immediately? We now know it's a violation immediately.
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
M&M Guy: Thanks for the clarification, but I already thought it through (see post#8).

When OS agreed with me, I decided that I needed to think harder. j/k
I know - I'm just slow on the keyboard.

(That and actually trying to get work done at the same time...sheesh...)
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:13pm
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Thanks M&M. Our Assn had quite a discussion last night on this and we could not come to a consensus. Once I take this thread to the next meeting, I beleive we all be on the same page.
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2007, 04:15pm
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One last question, as a guy that is frequently the timer or scorekeeper for games, will the officials signal the table that the throw in never ended and the AP arrow should not change?
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