Whats the world comming to?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's complete and utter udder. The OP said that nothing previously had happened. What kind of job the official had done is not a factor in any way in this situation. And no assignor anywhere, including the rec leagues that you solely work, would ever lay any blame on to the official. If he tried doing that, he wouldn't have any officials left to assign anyway.

Why do you people waste your time arguing with this goober? He'll never change...or learn.

Who doesn't learn? You respond to him here, then an hour and 40 minutes later, you respond to him again. Who's the one feeding the monkey?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What are the official's duties in a fight?

How were the officials in this case negligent?

He didn't say they were "negligent". He said they were "negilent". There's a difference. I looked up "negilent" in the dieblernary. It is defined as "a word used only by people whose shoe size exceeds their I.Q."

I think the metric definition is different.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Will you ever get it through your rec league-centered brain that it doesn't matter one damn bit what the damn parents or coaches think? We don't officiate for parents or coaches.

You might want to rethink that one. I bet yor assigners care what the coaches think. I also bet that if the coach told your assigner he never wanted you in his gym again, you would not be in that gym again.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only people that worry about what parents or coaches think are the Old Schools of the world, nor real officials.
Stupid monkeys....

That would be incorrect too. We just had a major rule change to our mechanics because of what the coaches think. Going opposite table to speed the game up because too much dialog between the parties. Seems to me that a lot of people care about what the coaches think since we are spending so much time talking to them that we need a rule change. But that's jmo. What do I know.

I admit, I approach this different. I care about what everybody thinks. I want everybody to have a good time and see a good, well referee'd contest when they come to my events. But again, that's just me. It's not about me when I officiate, it's about the game and the players in the game. I be damn if I let a kid beat another kid to a bloody mess on my court. He might get one or two in, but it won't be too many more than that before I get to them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) I bet yor assigners care what the coaches think. I also bet that if the coach told your assigner he never wanted you in his gym again, you would not be in that gym again.

2) But that's jmo. What do I know.

1) I'd bet you're wrong. I am an assignor. I don't let coaches tell who I can or can't put on a game. I would especially never dream of letting AAU or rec league coaches try to dictate anything like that. Maybe in your little rec-league universe, you have to worry about pleasing coaches and parents, but real officials don't. They just call the damn game.

2) What do you know? Nothing about the rules. With regards to mechanics, you know what you've read so far on this forum. Nothing else. Your officiating knowledge is mainly based on what you hear on tv, as far as I can tell.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Who doesn't learn? You respond to him here, then an hour and 40 minutes later, you respond to him again. Who's the one feeding the monkey?

The problem is, if we don't feed the monkeys, PETA gets mad and protests us.

[SMEngmann]

A couple points to respond to, mainly from Old School.

1) The input of the coaches on officiating has a lot to do with the area. I know assignors who will allow coaches to ding officials completely, but I also know some assignors who will deliberately put an official who a coach tried to ding on the coach's next game to prove he's in charge. I don't think either is a very good approach, but the point is that they both exist, and I'd much rather work for a group where coaches had less input, I think that leads to fairer officiating.

2) In Old School's scenario, it was poor game management to be aware of trash talking and not take care of business. That led directly to the flagrant Ts. Warn loudly so it's clear that no more back and forth will be tolerated and then double T, everyone will get the message and you project an image of strength. The coaches and players might get pissed at you, but at least you show them that you are firmly in charge and thus manage the game.

3) In the OP, something precipitated the attack and it either was past history or something that you didn't see or hear during the game. My advice is that if there's any tape of the game that you get a hold of that to help you defend yourself. Who knows in a lot of these AAU games what the history between the players is off the court or if there were past incidents. Or the kid may have just snapped, but given the reaction of the coach running the kid outta the gym to prevent him from being arrested, my bet is dollars to dimes that this player/team have history. Best wishes to you, hope everything turns out good on your end.

[LarryS]

Old School...if you honestly think that just because a fight breaks out during a game the officials involved missed something of messed up you are A COMPLETE IDIOT!

Last Saturday I was calling a game and about 4 minutes into the game we have a OOB call and my partner brings in 2 subs into the game. We resumed play and the sub for the team with the ball drives to the hoop and is fouled hard by the player that just came into the game for the defense. The ball handler jumped up and they squared off. My partner and I got there fast and I tossed both players. We called it very tight for the rest of the half and things calmed down. Now, could there have been "bad blood" between those two from something earlier? Yep...but this tournament had games played in 4 different locations using 10 gyms. How in the heck are we to know if something happened an hour ago that ticked one off (that may very well have nothing to do with a game played)? How can you "read the signals" of a pending problem when it happens 5 seconds after the two players enter the game?

Even better question...why did I waste my time typing this?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The problem is, if we don't feed the monkeys, PETA gets mad and protests us.

People Eating Tasty Animals.

Yumm

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by LarryS

1) Old School...if you honestly think that just because a fight breaks out during a game the officials involved missed something of messed up you are A COMPLETE IDIOT!

2) Now, could there have been "bad blood" between those two from something earlier? Yep...but this tournament had games played in 4 different locations using 10 gyms. How in the heck are we to know if something happened an hour ago that ticked one off (that may very well have nothing to do with a game played)? How can you "read the signals" of a pending problem when it happens 5 seconds after the two players enter the game?

Even better question...why did I waste my time typing this?

Because you brought up some good, relevant points, as listed above.....it wasn't a waste of time iow.

When you get into these AAU/rec league tournaments, you don't have a clue what happened a week ago or a state away. And usually, your assignor doesn't either, so he can't warn you or give you a heads-up either. All you can do is react to what happens when it happens. It's hard to be proactive if there's no real reason to do so. If a fight does break out with no previous warning signs, there is nowayinhell that an official is responsible or could have done anything about it.

[Philz]

Just to clear a few things up that was asked. Yes we did call the game. Yes I did eject the player but he knew it was comming before i could even signal it as his coach ushered him out of the gym and out of town in a second. The police neve asked us any questions as I believe they were more concerned it seemed with finding the kid and didnt hang around (or they needed to get to the donut shop). Also my partner and I were both at least 25 feet or more from the incedent and the punches he got off there was no way we could have stopped him from our distance. In fact I was the trail, ball just inbounded and I was following them (player with ball and defender) in the back court with some pressure. Partner was lead moving down court opposite the fight (in front court) and told me he saw nothing until it was over. I only saw one punch but the table said he pounded him 3 times. Maybe I'm a bad ref for not seeing the whole thing but my partner is a Div 2 Ref with many years under his belt and saw nothing.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Old School

If it was truely an AAU event. AAU has insurance and liability over this incident. Couple things different I would have done, or it sounds like it didn't get done. The player doing the fighting is ejected, #name in the book. If you didn't do this, then maybe something might come after you. Did you call the game? The team and the AAU will get sued, not you.

I had one this past weekend, but I was able to see it coming, but I had to work at it to determine. What I mean is that the kids where talking to each other under their breath where we could not hear them. On the F/T lines, they where talking to each other again, but very softly. After one scored on the other, lot of soft talking. The only thing I needed to determine was if this conversation was pleasent or not. It took awhile and I started getting closer to the players to try to hear what was being said. Yea, we got a problem here and my partners didn't even know it. What ended up happening was late in the game, a open court foul, nothing bad here, I got the call. Before I could report, the kid that was foul, kicked the living sh!t out of the player that fouled him, which I ran in with a Flargrant Technical Foul, which the other kid retaliated with a shove of his own, now I got another Flagrant Technical foul, my first, and it was a double. So I ended up with a double flagrant technical foul, both parties ejected.

The story doesn't end. We get back to the game, which ended with no more controversy, but the underneath talking didn't stop. So when the game was over and they all went thru and shook each overs hand, now everybody grouped up and going back to their benches, the talking started again, and it was about to explore. I monitored the handshake, which is something I normally don't do. Afterwards, I immedately jumped into the center of both teams and told them to quite talking to each other, the game is over, go to your benches!!! My partners where on the other side of the court getting ready to leave, they didn't even know and maybe they didn't care. Once I got the teams separated, and everyone was headed towards there benches, backs to each other, I turned it over to the coaches and I got the hell out of there. As I was leaving, I had a couple of parents thank me for my efforts.

O-NO-YOU-DIDN'T, you did not manage your game very well unless you're on a 1 man crew. I don't care if your partners were complete dolts, YOU should have communicated with them to make sure YOUR team was on the same page. You might have talked to the players, they maybe didn't listen so you talked to them again, maybe they listened for a minute but then went back to yackin. How many warnings do they get before you T? How many warnings do you give players before you let your partners in on it? What a joke!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by LarryS

Old School...if you honestly think that just because a fight breaks out during a game the officials involved missed something of messed up you are A COMPLETE IDIOT!

Where did I say that? Why don't you read what I say as opposed to trying to interpret what I didn't say. I said that if a kid gets beat to a bloody mess on your court where a ambulance has to be called and the kids face has to be re-attached. It sounds a little suspicious to me. This got nothing to do with prevention. This is after the fact. One kid, beating another and ref's didn't see it. I suppose it could happen, but to the extent it did is what's questionable to me.

Originally Posted by LarryS

Even better question...why did I waste my time typing this?

Especially if you can't get the story right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

You sound like you have no managing skills whatsoever. I'm not saying the OP screwed up, I'm just saying if some kid gets his head beat in to the point of unconsiousness, and has to be rushed to the hospital, you didn't do your job very well as an official, period. If I'm the assigner, I'm probably not going to assign you anymore games, period.

Right there is where you blamed the official, Old School. You can't keep your own stories straight, as usual.

As Larry said, you're a complete idiot.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by Old School

Where did I say that? Why don't you read what I say as opposed to trying to interpret what I didn't say. I said that if a kid gets beat to a bloody mess on your court where a ambulance has to be called and the kids face has to be re-attached. It sounds a little suspicious to me. This got nothing to do with prevention. This is after the fact. One kid, beating another and ref's didn't see it. I suppose it could happen, but to the extent it did is what's questionable to me.

Especially if you can't get the story right.

GOTCHA!!! You did it on 3 different occassions.

From the original post:

“The weirdest thing was there was no indication of any problem before that point. No trash talking, no roughness and not any controversy.”

Since nobody was at this game other than the original poster, we have to take his word.

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 03:56 pm)

“The OP didn't think something was wrong in his game. Well he was wrong and both him and his partner missed the signs from the players that something wasn't right.”

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 05:02 pm)

“I'm just saying if some kid gets his head beat in to the point of unconsiousness, and has to be rushed to the hospital, you didn't do your job very well as an official, period.”

From your post on 5/17 (time stamped at 06:54 pm)

“It's one thing to have a punch thrown, it's an entirely different thing to have a fight go on an on, one kid down on the floor while another kid is punching him to death. To me, that seems like the officials where negilent in their duties.”

Hope my use of facts doesn't mess up your defense.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Old School

If it was truely an AAU event. AAU has insurance and liability over this incident. Couple things different I would have done, or it sounds like it didn't get done. The player doing the fighting is ejected, #name in the book. If you didn't do this, then maybe something might come after you. Did you call the game? The team and the AAU will get sued, not you.

I had one this past weekend, but I was able to see it coming, but I had to work at it to determine. What I mean is that the kids where talking to each other under their breath where we could not hear them. On the F/T lines, they where talking to each other again, but very softly. After one scored on the other, lot of soft talking. The only thing I needed to determine was if this conversation was pleasent or not. It took awhile and I started getting closer to the players to try to hear what was being said. Yea, we got a problem here and my partners didn't even know it. What ended up happening was late in the game, a open court foul, nothing bad here, I got the call. Before I could report, the kid that was foul, kicked the living sh!t out of the player that fouled him, which I ran in with a Flargrant Technical Foul, which the other kid retaliated with a shove of his own, now I got another Flagrant Technical foul, my first, and it was a double. So I ended up with a double flagrant technical foul, both parties ejected.

The story doesn't end. We get back to the game, which ended with no more controversy, but the underneath talking didn't stop. So when the game was over and they all went thru and shook each overs hand, now everybody grouped up and going back to their benches, the talking started again, and it was about to explore. I monitored the handshake, which is something I normally don't do. Afterwards, I immedately jumped into the center of both teams and told them to quite talking to each other, the game is over, go to your benches!!! My partners where on the other side of the court getting ready to leave, they didn't even know and maybe they didn't care. Once I got the teams separated, and everyone was headed towards there benches, backs to each other, I turned it over to the coaches and I got the hell out of there. As I was leaving, I had a couple of parents thank me for my efforts.

OS, aren't you the ref who advocates subbing players out of the game as they become problems? Why did you not do this? You have told everyone else to do this in past threads. Sounds like you did not take your own management advice.

As others repeatedly have pointed out, your advice on game management has little worth, your comments on rules have even less worth. You always seem to have an example from your own games of things going wrong - no matter the topic. Maybe it is time to take a critical look as to why you have so many examples to share with us.