whats the all?

[xxssmen]

Player A1 is underneath the backboard and has to jump back into the defender for a shot but before doing so A1 fake the shot and gets B1 to jump, A1 than jumps back to B1 and try to attempt a shot but could not because the contact made by A1 caused A1 to fall down. So what would you call here?

A) Player control foul
B) No call
C) Foul on B1


Now I was told by some veteran officials here that I could of called A, B or C.
But better of calling C because that way I won’t have to hear it from A1 and his/her coach and where contact was made by B1, most chances B1 will not argue that call since contact was made even though A1 initiated the contact.

But also was told that if that scenario was to happen above the 3 point line that I should call for a player control foul since its clear who initiated the contact as where the other one underneath the basket was in a crowd an the only person who really can see it is the official.

I noticed a lot of players fake their opponent in the air than jumps into them to get a call an a lot do get the call, I even seen it in The NBA and NCAA and officials is giving the offensive player the calls.

[mick]

What did B1 do illegally?
I missed that part.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Some of your veteran officials are idiots. We don't make calls to keep players or coaches happy. An official named Newton once said if you do that, then the players and coaches on the other team will be just as unhappy with the same call. And recommending making different calls for the same play if it happened somewhere else on the floor is just as stoopid. Maybe you should mention to those veteran officials that they should grow some balls.

The only 2 possible correct calls are (a) or (b). If there was enough contact there to make the shooter fall down, I'd call the team control foul.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by xxssmen
Player A1 is underneath the backboard and has to jump back into the defender for a shot but before doing so A1 fake the shot and gets B1 to jump, A1 than jumps back to B1 and try to attempt a shot but could not because the contact made by A1 caused A1 to fall down. So what would you call here?

A) Player control foul
B) No call
C) Foul on B1

Excellent situation.

Originally posted by xxssmen
Now I was told by some veteran officials here that I could of called A, B or C. But better of calling C because that way I won’t have to hear it from A1 and his/her coach

This should never be a reason to call or not call a foul or violation.

Originally posted by xxssmen
and where contact was made by B1, most chances B1 will not argue that call since contact was made even though A1 initiated the contact.

Two things that are important here are:

who initiated the contact

who stayed within their cylinder, thereby respecting the principle of verticality

If a player has stayed within their cylinder, they cannot be called for a foul because they have not violated the principle of verticality. If a player does not adhere to the principle of verticality, they could be guilty of a foul.

If the contact is slight, you could ignore it either way. For a PC foul to occur, the same principles apply. Did the offensive player make contact to create room for him/her to shoot/pass/dribble, where otherwise they would not have room to shoot/pass/dribble? For a defensive foul to occur, the defender must not have jumped straight up, and initiated the contact on the shooter.

Originally posted by xxssmen
But also was told that if that scenario was to happen above the 3 point line that I should call for a player control foul since its clear who initiated the contact as where the other one underneath the basket was in a crowd an the only person who really can see it is the official.

Cow patties. The same call should be made no matter where it happens on the court. The only other option is a no-call. But certainly not a foul on the other team.

Originally posted by xxssmen
I noticed a lot of players fake their opponent in the air than jumps into them to get a call an a lot do get the call, I even seen it in The NBA and NCAA and officials is giving the offensive player the calls.

I've seen these plays too, and most often on the replay, sometimes from two angles, you can see that the defender violated the principle of verticality. Easy call: foul by B.

[xxssmen]

Ok lets say that A1 is attempting a jump shot and see B1 comming hard to attempt a block and B1 clearly is jumping to block A1's shot and is no longer in its cylinder which now has broken the verticality rule and A1 jumps into B1 which is also breaking its verticality rule and initaited the contact so what do we have now?

[mick]

Calling B1 for a foul because B1 left his feet is just wrong.
If B1 is displaced, or even possibly injured because of how he came down on A1, you must consider not only the Team Control, but also the Intentional Foul.

Often, A1 will illegally contact B1 with the resulting foul not affecting B1 and causing A1 miss the forced shot.
This contact, though not incidental, is being no-called with increasing frequency and sometimes is closely followed by a Technical Foul on a whining Team A or Player A.
mick


[xxssmen,
I inadvertently scratched your second post.
mick]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by xxssmen

Ok lets say that A1 is attempting a jump shot and see B1 comming hard to attempt a block and B1 clearly is jumping to block A1's shot and is no longer in its cylinder which now has broken the verticality rule and A1 jumps into B1 which is also breaking its verticality rule and initaited the contact so what do we have now?

So you're saying that B1 jumps forward as he shoots and that,

a) A1 jumps within his plane of verticality.
b) A1 jumps toward B1, and outside of his plane of verticality.

In a) the foul would be on B1, PC foul. In b) the foul would be on A1 for blocking.

[tomegun]

JR brought up a point that goes through my mind all the time when looking at plays: The defender didn't do anything wrong.

If the defender doesn't do anything wrong and gets called for a foul is that fair to him/her? I don't think so.

[mick]

Originally posted by tomegun
JR brought up a point that goes through my mind all the time when looking at plays: The defender didn't do anything wrong.

If the defender doesn't do anything wrong and gets called for a foul is that fair to him/her? I don't think so.

Actually, xxssmen clarified that in the post I inadvertently trashed.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick

Actually, xxssmen clarified that in the post I inadvertently trashed.
mick

mick,
I quoted his post before you could delete.
Bad mod.
TH

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 18th, 2005 at 09:51 AM]

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

mick,
I quoted his post before you could delete.
Bad mod.
TH

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 18th, 2005 at 09:51 AM]

Tony,
You never did allow me any room for error. You are just very tough! ... But I like it that way!

In that spirit, I would like to point out that the post you quoted was xxssmen's third.

His second post pointed out that he saw B1 doing nothing illegally.
mick


IMPORTANT
I have a twitching Skunk in my back yard, not quite *dead*, and not *live* enough to leave my yard on it's own. Assuming the little feller is never going to walk again and that he has evacuated all of his body fluids [air rifles are illegal in town, but if, somehow, he would twicth into another pellet], what do you do with a dead skunk?

[South GA BBall Ref]

xxss:

Remember to take the advice of some veterans with a grain of salt sometimes. I've often heard the saying that some people's 20 years of experience is only 1 year, experienced 20 times over.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by mick
what do you do with a dead skunk?

The only ones I know are in the middle of the road, stinkin' to high heaven.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
what do you do with a dead skunk?

Send you an email, mick

[Almost Always Right]

what do you do with a dead skunk?

[/B][/QUOTE]


Lose their phone #!!
AAR