Pick / Charge

[ColdShot]

The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?

What you cited from NCAA rules is basically the same under high school rules.

Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1.

Hope that helps.....

[ColdShot]

"Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1."

Thanks. Clearly by the rules it is a charge. I have a problem with the rule :-).
A fast player covers "10 feet" in about .3 seconds. He's supposed to be able to catch a pass, turn his head, see the defender, and avoid him in .3 seconds
or less according to both the NFHS and NCAA examples and rules. Indeed, since "speed and distance" do not apply to the player with the ball, the defender doesn't have to give any time or space before stepping in assuming LGP, correct?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

A fast player covers "10 feet" in about .3 seconds. He's supposed to be able to catch a pass, turn his head, see the defender, and avoid him in .3 seconds
or less according to both the NFHS and NCAA examples and rules. Indeed, since "speed and distance" do not apply to the player with the ball, the defender doesn't have to give any time or space before stepping in assuming LGP, correct?

There's different concepts involved depending on whether the offensive player has control of the ball or not.
1) If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions. The required distance is 1-2 steps, but the maximum that must be allowed is 2 steps.
2) If the player does have the ball, then "guarding" principles are involved instead. To establish a legal guarding position, the defender does not have to allow time and distance. The only requirements to establish an initial legal guarding position are (a) the defender must establish himself in the offensive player's path with both feet on the court, and (b) the defender must be facing the offensive player at that particular time. If the defensive player can do that and then maintain that legal guarding position, the onus for contact lies with the offensive player. There is no requirement for the defender to give any distance at all after establishing an initial legal guarding position.

Make any sense now?

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's different concepts involved depending on whether the offensive player has control of the ball or not.
1) If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions. The required distance is 1-2 steps, but the maximum that must be allowed is 2 steps.
2) If the player does have the ball, then "guarding" principles are involved instead. To establish a legal guarding position, the defender does not have to allow time and distance. The only requirements to establish an initial legal guarding position are (a) the defender must establish himself in the offensive player's path with both feet on the court, and (b) the defender must be facing the offensive player at that particular time. If the defensive player can do that and then maintain that legal guarding position, the onus for contact lies with the offensive player. There is no requirement for the defender to give any distance at all after establishing an initial legal guarding position.

Make any sense now?

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder for several steps while the defender was waiting to cut off his path.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

When would you prefer the "transition" to take place? How would that be enforced?

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When would you prefer the "transition" to take place? How would that be enforced?

I would prefer the player catching the pass be afforded the same "time and
distance" he had the .1 of a second before he caught the pass. It could be
enforced the same way an illegal screen is enforced, but since the player with the ball is fouled it would be a blocking foul on the defender.

The wording and the specific example in the rulebook protects an offensive player running down the court without the ball: "If the player doesn't have the ball, "screening" principles apply and the defender has to give "time and distance" to a moving opponent. Iow, they have to give the other player time to stop or change directions."

It would seem the thinking involved with "guarding principles" for the player
with the ball assumes he is dribbling into a defender or otherwise has the opportunity to see him and avoid him. "Screening principles" assume a player may be blind screened or otherwise be put in a situation where it is physically impossible to avoid the screener (so he is given "time and space")....this is the same situation a pass receiver may be in.

Camron Rust said:
"Basically, if a player knows he is about to catch the ball and needs to be aware of where other players [are]. Before he turns his head to the ball, he should ensure that is path is clear. More than likely, the player was looking over his shoulder..."

Well, yes. If you are running away from the ball you must look back over your shoulder to catch it. A long pass could be in the air 1-2 seconds. Even at half speed players could move 15-30 feet in that time. Again, the rules allow the same offensive player "time and space" when the pass is in the air, but the instant he catches it those same rules no longer apply. A defender behind the play can gauge the pass, receiver, speed, etc. and step in (to LGP) the instant the pass is caught *legally*. Even the NFL has rules to protect receivers in this type of case.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

No....the issue that I have a problem with is the combination of 1) and 2) where the receiver doesn't have the ball one instant and ""screening" principles apply", then suddenly ""guarding" principles are involved instead" as he catches the pass. The instantaneous transition, and completely different set of rules, is what I have a problem with.

But that's not when the transition occurs. As soon as the "reciever's" (A1) team has the ball, B1 is guarding him (or, at least, has the opportunity to get into a legal guarding position). The only difference is then guarding a player with the ball vs. guarding a player without the ball.