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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 11:39am
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Pick / Charge

Rec league game last night, very good officials, one a good
friend who does a lot of HS games, but we had two questions:

1) Ball is being passed in from the baseline after a made basket.
Offensive player is running towards half court, head turned back
to the baseline to see a pass. Defender takes position perhaps
2-3 steps before offensive player receives pass near midcourt,
but out of the offensive players field of view (he's looking back
for the pass). Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Thanks!

Bill


BTW, from the NCAA rulebook I found this. Does it apply in this case? If so
which part:

As the pass is made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.***


***When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance shall be irrelevant.***

Complete rule below.


Section 20. By Screener
Art. 1. A player shall not cause contact by setting a screen outside the
visual field of a stationary opponent that does not allow this opponent a
normal step to move.
Art. 2. A screener shall not make contact with the opponent when setting
a screen within the visual field of that opponent.
Art. 3. A screener shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent
that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction.
A.R. 21. B1 maneuvers to a position in front of offensive post player A1 to prevent A1
from receiving the ball. A high pass is made out of the reach of B1. The offensive post
player A1 moves toward the basket to catch the pass and try for goal. As the pass is
made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action
involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have
the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in
advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.*** When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive
post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.
When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance
shall be irrelevant.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 11:53am
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Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.

Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 11:56am
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1) Neither, however a travel will likely occurr.

2) sounds invalid, but maybe the official judged possession when you were judging loose ball.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 11:56am
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Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
Rec league game last night, very good officials, one a good
friend who does a lot of HS games, but we had two questions:

1) Ball is being passed in from the baseline after a made basket.
Offensive player is running towards half court, head turned back
to the baseline to see a pass. Defender takes position perhaps
2-3 steps before offensive player receives pass near midcourt,
but out of the offensive players field of view (he's looking back
for the pass). Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Thanks!

Bill

1) Charge. The way you described it, the defender was there in plenty of time.
2) No 3 seconds without team control in the front court. As soon as the shot was taken, a new count can only start when an offensive player secures the rebound. Bad call.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbioteach
Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.


Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.
Re. 1) Defender established LGP before offensive player has the ball. Why doesn't this apply?

"B2 has switched to guard ***a player who does not have
the ball;*** therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1) to make the action legal.***
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:03pm
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Sorry

Player control reference relates to an interupted dribble (loose ball).
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Not enough info to correctly answer.Need to know if the shot had left the shooter's hand(s) or not before the block.
- if the shot was blocked out of the shooter's hands(iow before it left the shooter's hand(s) on the shot), then team control is not lost and the 3-second count continues.
- if the shot was blocked after it left the shooter's hand(s), player control was lost and a new 3-second count would not be started until an offensive player gained control in their front-court with either themselves or a teammate in the lane.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:30pm
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The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:34pm
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JR answered the second part of your post well. As far as the block/charge, that is a tough call. As described, I would be inclined to go with the charge, but that is a hard one to call without seeing it. More importantly than anything, make sure you have a whistle on a play like that, which it sounds as though you did.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?
What you cited from NCAA rules is basically the same under high school rules.

Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1.

Hope that helps.....
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbioteach
Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.

Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.
JR hit this already, but I want to only add that player control is not necessary for a three-second count. All that's required is team control in the front court. An interrupted dribble, for example, would not terminate nor suspend a three-second count.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdShot
1) Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?
Player control foul. Once A1 caught the ball, time and distance become irrelevant. Giving a player time to avoid the contact only applies to a player who doesn't have the ball. As soon as he caught the ball, he lost his "right" to time-and-distance guidelines. As my interpreter always told us, the guy with the ball has to expect to be guarded.

A couple other general comments that don't apply to this particular situation. If B1 established his position after A1 became airborne and the contact occurs before A1 lands, then it's a block whether A1 has control of the ball or not.

If A1 had not caught the ball cleanly (he was bobbling it), then it is a block because A1 still has not established control of the ball.

If it's such a close call that you can't tell who was responsible for the contact, a lot of officials will call a "phantom" travel, just to have a whistle. I'm not saying this is good or bad; just that it's often done.

Quote:
2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.
As someone else already said, once the try is released, the 3-second count doesn't start again until the offensive team re-establishes team control in the frontcourt.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
If A1 had not caught the ball cleanly (he was bobbling it), then it is a block because A1 still has not established control of the ball.

In op the defender was there 2 or 3 steps before the collision, and as I picture it defender remained stationary. In this case, how can it possibly be a block no matter what happens?
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 02:57pm
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Someone help old Sam out here,

When does the stationery B1 tranfer from setting a blind screen to a player taking a charge?
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
A couple other general comments that don't apply to this particular situation. If B1 established his position after A1 became airborne and the contact occurs before A1 lands, then it's a block whether A1 has control of the ball or not.

If A1 had not caught the ball cleanly (he was bobbling it), then it is a block because A1 still has not established control of the ball.
I agree with #1, but could you explain situation #2 a bit more clearly? Is this after airborne A1 comes back down to the ground?
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