Pick / Charge

[ColdShot]

Rec league game last night, very good officials, one a good
friend who does a lot of HS games, but we had two questions:

1) Ball is being passed in from the baseline after a made basket.
Offensive player is running towards half court, head turned back
to the baseline to see a pass. Defender takes position perhaps
2-3 steps before offensive player receives pass near midcourt,
but out of the offensive players field of view (he's looking back
for the pass). Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Thanks!

Bill


BTW, from the NCAA rulebook I found this. Does it apply in this case? If so
which part:

As the pass is made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.***


***When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance shall be irrelevant.***

Complete rule below.


Section 20. By Screener
Art. 1. A player shall not cause contact by setting a screen outside the
visual field of a stationary opponent that does not allow this opponent a
normal step to move.
Art. 2. A screener shall not make contact with the opponent when setting
a screen within the visual field of that opponent.
Art. 3. A screener shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent
that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction.
A.R. 21. B1 maneuvers to a position in front of offensive post player A1 to prevent A1
from receiving the ball. A high pass is made out of the reach of B1. The offensive post
player A1 moves toward the basket to catch the pass and try for goal. As the pass is
made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action
involves a screening principle. ***B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have
the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in
advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)
to make the action legal.*** When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive
post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.
When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance
shall be irrelevant.

[hbioteach]

Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.

Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by hbioteach

Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.


Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.

Re. 1) Defender established LGP before offensive player has the ball. Why doesn't this apply?

"B2 has switched to guard ***a player who does not have
the ball;*** therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1) to make the action legal.***

[hbioteach]

Player control reference relates to an interupted dribble (loose ball).

[ColdShot]

The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

The question: is there any protection under the rules for
a "pass receiver"? Aside from the screen rule I couldn't find
a thing. Indeed the receiver looses the "natural step" afforded
a screened player after he receives the ball. He may be running
at full speed, head turned looking for a pass, and the defender
can step in the instant he receives the ball, assuming the receiver
isn't airborne, right? The NFL affords more protection, under their
rules, for pass receivers in full pads and helmets. Or did I miss
something?

What you cited from NCAA rules is basically the same under high school rules.

Here is an NFHS case book play that might explain it a little more fully to you:
Casebook Play 10.6.3SitD:
A1 is running towards A's goal but is looking back to receive a pass. B1 takes a position in the path of A1 while A1 is 10 feet away from B1. (a)A1 runs into B1 before receiving the ball, or (b) A1 receives the ball and runs into B1.
RULING: In both (a) and (b), A1 is responsible for contact. In (a), B1's position is legal if A1 has been given 2 strides prior to contact. In (b), since the position of B1 is legal when A1 has the ball, the contact is charging by B1.

Hope that helps.....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by hbioteach

Play 1: Once a defender has established LGP, Time and distance are not important. Definate player control unless LGP is stablished after offensiv play is in the air.

Play 2: 3 second count is only valid when there is team and player control in the front court.

JR hit this already, but I want to only add that player control is not necessary for a three-second count. All that's required is team control in the front court. An interrupted dribble, for example, would not terminate nor suspend a three-second count.

[Camron Rust]

Block/Charge...

The defender is required to give time and distance only if the opponent doesn't have the ball. In this case, the defender, at first, was required to give 2 steps (opponent was running full speed without the ball). However, once the opponent catches the ball, the time/distance requirements are eliminated.

So, if the defender gets the same position giving one step (for example) until contact, the call depends on whether the offensive player catches the ball. Catch...charge, no catch....block.

If the offensive player was airborne at the time the defender took thier position, the offensive player must be allowed room to land. Once they land, the same requirements exist as if they never jumped...time and distance if they don't have the ball.

If the defender took thier position before the offensive player jumped, the defender need not give them a place to land if they have the ball (at the time of contact) but may need to give space to land if they don't.

(this was composed 2 hours before I submitted it so it might be redundant with other's posts by now)

[SamIAm]

1) Neither, however a travel will likely occurr.

2) sounds invalid, but maybe the official judged possession when you were judging loose ball.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

Rec league game last night, very good officials, one a good
friend who does a lot of HS games, but we had two questions:

1) Ball is being passed in from the baseline after a made basket.
Offensive player is running towards half court, head turned back
to the baseline to see a pass. Defender takes position perhaps
2-3 steps before offensive player receives pass near midcourt,
but out of the offensive players field of view (he's looking back
for the pass). Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Thanks!

Bill

1) Charge. The way you described it, the defender was there in plenty of time.
2) No 3 seconds without team control in the front court. As soon as the shot was taken, a new count can only start when an offensive player secures the rebound. Bad call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

Valid call?

Not enough info to correctly answer.Need to know if the shot had left the shooter's hand(s) or not before the block.
- if the shot was blocked out of the shooter's hands(iow before it left the shooter's hand(s) on the shot), then team control is not lost and the 3-second count continues.
- if the shot was blocked after it left the shooter's hand(s), player control was lost and a new 3-second count would not be started until an offensive player gained control in their front-court with either themselves or a teammate in the lane.

[Junker]

JR answered the second part of your post well. As far as the block/charge, that is a tough call. As described, I would be inclined to go with the charge, but that is a hard one to call without seeing it. More importantly than anything, make sure you have a whistle on a play like that, which it sounds as though you did.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Junker

JR answered the second part of your post well. As far as the block/charge, that is a tough call. As described, I would be inclined to go with the charge, but that is a hard one to call without seeing it. More importantly than anything, make sure you have a whistle on a play like that, which it sounds as though you did.

Junker:

Please elaborate on why the block/charge play, as described in the origianl post, is a tough call. As described in the orginal post, this is a charge even if the offensive player never gets the ball. The defender met all of the requirements for obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark Dexter]

I'm a bit dizzy (part reading this and part having a headache) and still not comprehending the multiple merged scenarios above? Anyone care to explain at a level that someone whose brain is burned out from studying can comprehend?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

1) Collision occurs before offensive player can take
a full step after he catches the ball.

Block or charge?

Player control foul. Once A1 caught the ball, time and distance become irrelevant. Giving a player time to avoid the contact only applies to a player who doesn't have the ball. As soon as he caught the ball, he lost his "right" to time-and-distance guidelines. As my interpreter always told us, the guy with the ball has to expect to be guarded.

A couple other general comments that don't apply to this particular situation. If B1 established his position after A1 became airborne and the contact occurs before A1 lands, then it's a block whether A1 has control of the ball or not.

If A1 had not caught the ball cleanly (he was bobbling it), then it is a block because A1 still has not established control of the ball.

If it's such a close call that you can't tell who was responsible for the contact, a lot of officials will call a "phantom" travel, just to have a whistle. I'm not saying this is good or bad; just that it's often done.

2) Offense player has the ball in the lane. Shot is blocked and the ball is loose in the lane 4-5 seconds, several players are trying to pick it up, offense picks it up and three seconds is called instantly.

As someone else already said, once the try is released, the 3-second count doesn't start again until the offensive team re-establishes team control in the frontcourt.