TV commentators and the great georgeton travel incident...

[Y2Koach]

I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.

No worries. I'm in SoCal but I do know quite a few NorCal officials, mostly through collegiate ball. It is widely held that there are much fewer solid officials there than in SoCal. Not too surprising though since SoCal has an embarrasment of riches of solid officials.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

No worries. I'm in SoCal but I do know quite a few NorCal officials, mostly through collegiate ball. It is widely held that there are much fewer solid officials there than in SoCal. Not too surprising though since SoCal has an embarrasment of riches of solid officials.

It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.

At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?

Let's see......

The great majority of NCAA officials are terrible in your opinion. And the great majority of Northern California officials are also terrible in your opinion. But you? You're great in your opinion.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in my opinion you might be just about the lowest, ethics-lacking, back-stabbing so-called official that has ever posted on this forum.

Unfreaking believable.......

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's see......

The great majority of NCAA officials are terrible in your opinion. And the great majority of Northern California officials are also terrible in your opinion. But you? You're great in your opinion.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in my opinion you might be just about the lowest, ethics-lacking, back-stabbing so-called official that has ever posted on this forum.

Unfreaking believable.......

Where do you get the idea that I think the majority of officials are horrible? I never said that. You love to take snippets and pieces and mold them the way you want. You'd be a great sports writer.
I'd like to ask you a question: If your partner has a bad game, do you tell him great job? So if you see a game on TV or live at a higher level is it different?
Critiquing performance goes with the territory. I've heard plenty of D1 officials talk about their bad games and screw-ups. I get observed on tons of games and get told what I can do better (and not just by the fans ).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Where do you get the idea that I think the majority of officials are horrible?

Where? Here's just a few of your posts:
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...02#post=393702

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...97#post=393697

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...52#post=393552

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...86#post=392786

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...90#post=392490

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...82#post=392382

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...77#post=392377

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...60#post=389460

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...29#post=388029

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...31#post=299631

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...96#post=299396

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...69#post-297969

Your posts are right at the bottom of each link. Just scroll down a little and take a look. That's just from a quick glance at your posting history too. I can probably find more posts where you crapped on officials if you'd like me to. Just say the word.

I'll stand by my impression of you. You're just one sad dude when it comes to ethics and integrity imo.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by socalreff

At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?

Wow. I am pushing 6', 173. The other two officials I know of from my association that are on here are about 6'1", 180, and 5'9, 130.

(Although I must say that I'll probably be heading down that way for at least two camps this summer.)

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

its good to see officials that care about their craft and i wish that more officials in the association in my area cared as you guys do.

Ouch.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

but since 90% of the refs in our area would call it travel,

Very ouch.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.

What side of the bay, I wonder...

Incidentally, coach, if you're in my part of the bay, I personally know of 2 other officials from the association I'm in who are on this basketball forum. Plus me makes 3. I dare say you'd be hard pressed to find too many associations with many more than that on this site on a regular basis.

[Y2Koach]

I know this being my first post, my introduction of myself might come off as a little brash. I understand about first impressions and I am really not here just to cause a ruckus, however it may have appeared initially.

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

My team is down 15 - 20 points throughout the game, we are playing horribly and are lucky to only be down this much. We start to make some shots and play a little defense, so we make a 4th quarter run and with about 1:48 or so left, we cut the lead to 5. By the way, the officials have done a pretty decent job and I am definitely not the type to be screaming at officials throughout the game. Anyways, down 5 with 1:48 left, opposing team is on the line for a 1 and 1. As we have been doing all game (and all season long), we have our 4 players along the lane and our 5th player is lined up above the freethrow line extended outside the 3pt arc, opposite his teammate who is supposed to boxout the freethrower. Before the baseline ref gives the shooter the ball, the ref along the sideline tells my player he must line up "above the top of the key". I tell my player we really need this looseball, line up where youre supposed to be. The ref then puts his arm out to move my player back and tells him to line up above the top of the key. Again, i tell my guy to line up where he is supposed to be, we need this rebound. As the baseline ref tosses the ball to the shooter, the sideline ref moves my player about 5 feet behind the top of the key and walks over to me to tell me "listen coach, you really need to know the rules before you cost your team a point if he misses". Up until this point, i have not said anything to the ref at all.

The shooter shoots the FT and as luck would have it, the rebound lands exactly where my player is supposed to be. The ball actually bounces on the floor before the opposing player picks up the ball and they score a layup.

We take the ball and drive to the hoop and get fouled. While the players are setting up to shoot the FTs, the ref again comes towards my bench and tells me "yeah, you really need to know the rules". I tell the ref "I read the rulebook cover to cover once a week". One of my players comes to the bench area to ask what defense we should go into and when we should foul. He is in front of the bench area, above the freethrow line extended but below the top of the key extended. The reft tells him he needs to move or he will cost his teammate a point, and that "your coach really needs to know the rules."

He has now told me I need to know the rule 3 times. A rule that he is wrong about, that cost my team a valuable possession at a strategic part of the game. A rule that will come into play again since we are losing and time is winding down so we will need to foul to stop the clock and hope they miss freethrows. So we foul again and the opposition is at the line for its last 1 and 1 before double bonus. Again, the same ref tells my player to move back and while doing so looks in my direction and starts laughing and shaking his head.... what would you do?

Now strategically, down by 5 with 1:40something on the clock and the ball, if we score, we do not have to foul purposely if we can score on our possession, maybe down 3 with 1:20 or so left. Instead we were down 6 with 1:03 left and have to foul. If they make 2 FTs or get another long rebound that my player should have been permitted position to retrieve, its highly improbable we can come back without any major luck.

So while the opposition is bouncing the ball, preparing to shoot his FT, I pull out my rulebook. Rule 8 Art 5 was pretty easy to find since its pretty close to the exact middle of the booklet. I read the rule to the ref: ANY PLAYER, OTHER THAN THE FREE THROWER, WHO DOES NOT OCCUPY A MARKED LANE SPACE MUST BE BEHIND THE FREE-THROW LINE EXTENDED AND BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE.

By the way, we end up losing that game by 8 or 9 but we did not play well enough to deserve to win the game even though the guys showed a little heart by fighting its way back.

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

...Before the baseline ref gives the shooter the ball, the ref along the sideline tells my player he must line up "above the top of the key". I tell my player we really need this looseball, line up where youre supposed to be. The ref then puts his arm out to move my player back and tells him to line up above the top of the key. Again, i tell my guy to line up where he is supposed to be, we need this rebound.

It's nice that you have a rulebook and are serious about studying it. The fact is that the rules knowledge which you have to accept during the game is the knowledge the officiating crew possesses. In the scenario I have quoted, you really have to accept what the game administration is saying at that time - if you wish to call a timeout and discuss it and the official puts up with that, then do that, but don't defiantly put your player back into a position he is being told to vacate - with four players lined up, you're going to lose the rebound because of failure to position the 5th player in that spot??

What level of HS ball is this? I think you're focusing on the officials and teaching your players disrespect of the game administration - instead, try teaching them to focus on playing the game within the context of whatever the officials dictate. No one is perfect and we all learn as we advance ; trotting around with a rulebook and teaching defiance to your players is not impressive. No wonder you lost the game - you kept your players too distracted from what was important on the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

I recommend that you stick your rule book up your azz.

After the way that you have already denigrated and demeaned all basketball officials, that is the only answer that you deserve to get.

Why are you asking us anyway? You've already informed us that being such a renowned, self-acclaimed rules junky, you already know more than 90% of the officials. If you're that smart, answer your own damn questions. Look 'em up in your rule book. You sureashell don't need us.

Lah me.......

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

Recognize that you aren't likely to win this argument during the game. Then try something like, "Isn't the rule that the player must be above the FT line and beyond the arc?" If the official respnds, "No", then say, "Maybe we should both look it up after the game so we know for sure next time."

Not all officials will look it up. Some will. Over time, all will be smarter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

I'll ask you a question, then answer this one.

Did it work?

Here's my recommendation. Adjust during this game, contact the assigner or someone else at the association to discuss the ruling the next day.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Here is a situation where I actually pulled out a rulebook. Tell me how out of line I am.

Way out of line .... keep reading you will so how far.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

the ref again comes towards my bench and tells me "yeah, you really need to know the rules".

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

to the officials out there: What would you recommend I do in this situation?

Make note of what the official said and as others have said report him to the league and the assigning supervisor, they will address it.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

So while the opposition is bouncing the ball, preparing to shoot his FT, I pull out my rulebook. Rule 8 Art 5 was pretty easy to find since its pretty close to the exact middle of the booklet. I read the rule to the ref: ANY PLAYER, OTHER THAN THE FREE THROWER, WHO DOES NOT OCCUPY A MARKED LANE SPACE MUST BE BEHIND THE FREE-THROW LINE EXTENDED AND BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE.

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I tell the ref "I read the rulebook cover to cover once a week".

Apparently you do need to "LEARN THE RULES"
I will cite the rules for you feel free to look them up
NFHS rules
Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
Section 4
Art 1
a) disrespectfully addressing an official
b) trying to influence an officials decision

Sticking a rule book in the official's face to show him up and quoting a rule from that book to make the official change their mind would qualify

WHACK AND AWAY YOU GO

I do not care how wrong the official is you are not going to pull out a rule book (by rule) and not get whacked.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.

But seriously, we do have an abundance of games and instruction at every level, and I would say that an official who wants to, can get better here faster than anywhere else in the country. I know when I started, I worked 1000 games a year--weekends alone I'd do 15-20. And there are so many games you don't even have to call to get them. Once people know you wanna work, you get tons of calls. In fact, I just got a call yesterday to work for someone I hadn't talked to in a year. It truly is an amazing opportunity.