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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 05:59pm
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TV commentators and the great georgeton travel incident...

Hello all.

Just a quick intro about myself, I am a High School Boys basketball coach in California, a rules junky that is known to pull out the rulebook i keep in my pocket during games when officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them. anyways, i love this message board, its good to see officials that care about their craft and i wish that more officials in the association in my area cared as you guys do.

and on to the georgetown travel

I just happened to be helping out a coaching friend of mine a few days before the georgetown game, and the exact "travel" situation came up during one of the drills. It was my assertion that it is NOT traveling, but since 90% of the refs in our area would call it travel, that move should be used with caution. It took me the rulebook as well as a physical demonstration to convince the other coach that it is NOT traveling but i am not sure if he is convinced... anyways...

when i saw the play on TV, I was convinced it was NOT traveling, and that the TV commentators (on several networks) were wrong. It bothered me for hours, as they kept going back to these commentators saying how the game ended in controversy over an "obvious travel". What bothered me even more was that it seemed by the time the evening editions of sports center came on, someone had informed the commentators about the rule, and to save face, they started saying that it was the "shuffling and lifting" of the pivot foot prior to the move that was the travel in question, and had zoomed in angles to illustrate what they "really meant"

So im on espn.com and I see this quote from a JAY BILAS column:

"Take a Walk to the Rulebook: I was in San Jose for the West Regional, so I watched the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game in the East Regional from afar. When Jeff Green hit the game-winning shot for the Hoyas, I did not believe that he traveled. When I heard different commentators from the different networks say with a great degree of certainty that Green had walked and the officials had missed it, I disagreed.

What Green did was a legal move and is, in fact, taught by many coaches. Green did a simple step-through move that is used in up-and-under moves and in the use of a hook shot, and is legal. I went to the Rule Book, to Rule 4, Article 66, Section 4(a), which states that once a player establishes his pivot foot, the pivot foot may leave the floor as long as it is not brought back to the floor before the ball is released. Green established his right foot as his pivot foot, pivoted, and went up for the shot off his left foot. All of that was completely legal under the rules.

It may have looked like a traveling violation to some, but it was not. When such a move is called as a travel, most coaches argue to the officials that it was a missed call.

The only argument regarding the violation that has any merit, in my judgment, is the view that Green moved his right pivot foot well before he got into his move. However, that was only visible super close-up and in slow motion. It was nearly impossible to see in real time.

I have heard some say the officials couldn't call a walk in that situation because the players are supposed to decide the outcome of the game that late in the game. I disagree. If Green had walked and it was called, the players would have decided it. But Green did not walk. What he did was a legal move under the rules. Not everyone, including me, knows the rules as well as they perhaps should, but the officials generally do. I think they got it right in the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game."



just thought i should share this with you officials that care about your craft. Although this tidbit did not get as much attention as the "georgetown vanderbilt game ends in controversy, sports center coming up" headlines, it is good to see a member of the media point out the facts.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:03pm
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Announcers Said He Traveled

Thanks, Coach. Now click on the above and check out post #47.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
Hello all.

Just a quick intro about myself, I am a High School Boys basketball coach in California, a rules junky that is known to pull out the rulebook i keep in my pocket during games when officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them. anyways, i love this message board, its good to see officials that care about their craft and i wish that more officials in the association in my area cared as you guys do.

and on to the georgetown travel

I just happened to be helping out a coaching friend of mine a few days before the georgetown game, and the exact "travel" situation came up during one of the drills. It was my assertion that it is NOT traveling, but since 90% of the refs in our area would call it travel, that move should be used with caution. It took me the rulebook as well as a physical demonstration to convince the other coach that it is NOT traveling but i am not sure if he is convinced... anyways...

when i saw the play on TV, I was convinced it was NOT traveling, and that the TV commentators (on several networks) were wrong. It bothered me for hours, as they kept going back to these commentators saying how the game ended in controversy over an "obvious travel". What bothered me even more was that it seemed by the time the evening editions of sports center came on, someone had informed the commentators about the rule, and to save face, they started saying that it was the "shuffling and lifting" of the pivot foot prior to the move that was the travel in question, and had zoomed in angles to illustrate what they "really meant"

So im on espn.com and I see this quote from a JAY BILAS column:

"Take a Walk to the Rulebook: I was in San Jose for the West Regional, so I watched the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game in the East Regional from afar. When Jeff Green hit the game-winning shot for the Hoyas, I did not believe that he traveled. When I heard different commentators from the different networks say with a great degree of certainty that Green had walked and the officials had missed it, I disagreed.

What Green did was a legal move and is, in fact, taught by many coaches. Green did a simple step-through move that is used in up-and-under moves and in the use of a hook shot, and is legal. I went to the Rule Book, to Rule 4, Article 66, Section 4(a), which states that once a player establishes his pivot foot, the pivot foot may leave the floor as long as it is not brought back to the floor before the ball is released. Green established his right foot as his pivot foot, pivoted, and went up for the shot off his left foot. All of that was completely legal under the rules.

It may have looked like a traveling violation to some, but it was not. When such a move is called as a travel, most coaches argue to the officials that it was a missed call.

The only argument regarding the violation that has any merit, in my judgment, is the view that Green moved his right pivot foot well before he got into his move. However, that was only visible super close-up and in slow motion. It was nearly impossible to see in real time.

I have heard some say the officials couldn't call a walk in that situation because the players are supposed to decide the outcome of the game that late in the game. I disagree. If Green had walked and it was called, the players would have decided it. But Green did not walk. What he did was a legal move under the rules. Not everyone, including me, knows the rules as well as they perhaps should, but the officials generally do. I think they got it right in the Georgetown-Vanderbilt game."



just thought i should share this with you officials that care about your craft. Although this tidbit did not get as much attention as the "georgetown vanderbilt game ends in controversy, sports center coming up" headlines, it is good to see a member of the media point out the facts.
Hey coach. Just wondering what association your school is in?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:12pm
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I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:15pm
sj sj is offline
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Nice post coach. You've said it very well. Now you should copy and paste your post and send it Doug Gotlieb on ESPN who claims the guy switched his pivot foot. Doug needs help. To a lot of those yokels it just looked funny so they assumed it had to be a travel.
The other issue with the call was did his pivot (right) foot actually come off the floor. To most it looked like it did but it was pretty much due to a push by the defender. So to get technical do you call a travel, a foul on the defender, or just no-call it? It was a good no-call.

Last edited by sj; Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 06:17pm.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.
No worries. I'm in SoCal but I do know quite a few NorCal officials, mostly through collegiate ball. It is widely held that there are much fewer solid officials there than in SoCal. Not too surprising though since SoCal has an embarrasment of riches of solid officials.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
No worries. I'm in SoCal but I do know quite a few NorCal officials, mostly through collegiate ball. It is widely held that there are much fewer solid officials there than in SoCal. Not too surprising though since SoCal has an embarrasment of riches of solid officials.
It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.
At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
It is widely held in NorCal that the SoCal officials are full of themselves.
But seriously, we do have an abundance of games and instruction at every level, and I would say that an official who wants to, can get better here faster than anywhere else in the country. I know when I started, I worked 1000 games a year--weekends alone I'd do 15-20. And there are so many games you don't even have to call to get them. Once people know you wanna work, you get tons of calls. In fact, I just got a call yesterday to work for someone I hadn't talked to in a year. It truly is an amazing opportunity.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 06:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
Just a quick intro about myself, I am a High School Boys basketball coach in California, a rules junky that is known to pull out the rulebook i keep in my pocket during games when officials are obviously not interested in doing their job and i am forced to assist them.
I have to ask, coach. How well does this go over with officials in your area? 'Cause I have to say if a coach pulled it in my game, it wouldn't go over so well.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 07:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I have to ask, coach. How well does this go over with officials in your area? 'Cause I have to say if a coach pulled it in my game, it wouldn't go over so well.
I'm in this camp. If a coach pulled that out in the middle of my game to "assist" me, I'd give him some nice private reading time in the locker room.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 07:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
At least SoCal officials have half a reason to be. NorCal...I don't know what their excuse is....maybe over-eating?
Let's see......

The great majority of NCAA officials are terrible in your opinion. And the great majority of Northern California officials are also terrible in your opinion. But you? You're great in your opinion.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in my opinion you might be just about the lowest, ethics-lacking, back-stabbing so-called official that has ever posted on this forum.

Unfreaking believable.......
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 08:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y2Koach
I am in the bay area but do not want to ruffle any feathers or incriminate myself quite yet. there are some very good officials that do our games, but it seems they make up only about 10 percent.
Oh great....

You come to an officials' website, talk about how you're forced to assist all your local officials that don't know how to do their jobs, and you also state that 90% of your local officials are basically terrible anyway. Cool.

Well, I don't want to ruffle any feathers either, but I think that you're just another big-talking jerk.

With any luck you'll get socalreff on all your games. If ever two people deserved each other, it's you two.

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Tue Mar 27, 2007 at 08:07pm.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 08:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I have to ask, coach. How well does this go over with officials in your area? 'Cause I have to say if a coach pulled it in my game, it wouldn't go over so well.
I would say that most officials would stick that rule book right up his butt if he ever pulled it out to lecture them during a game. Methinks we might have ourselves a troll here instead of a real coach anyway, from the casual way that he's crapping all over his local officials. If he is a real coach, he sureashell has got a lot to learn when it comes to dealing with officials.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 09:09pm
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Wow. Jurassic, you need a new handle. Like, T-rex. Or T-ref. Or the shredder. I love the way you roll!
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