A&M/Memphis finish

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Huh? What backs up your statement - ball is dead when whistled dead... T whistled and indicated A&M ball before OOB actually happened.

Sigh....

You really need to learn some basics, jk. See NFHS fundamental #16 on p74 of the FED rule book. That holds true for NCAA games too. Again, the whistle is completely irrelevant on plays when the clock NEVER started and a timing adjustment needs to be made. The officials need definite information as to how much time should be taken off, and when the whistle blew has got nothing to do with establishing that definite information. The actual time that elapsed between a legal touch in-bounds until the ball touched OOB is definite information.

And how do you know that the T was indicating A&M ball? I though that the trail was pointing at the last-touch. The crew was doing that the whole game.

Do you really think that the people officiating at that level, including the fourth official sitting at the table, don't know whatintheheck they're doing?

[Scrapper1]

Far be it from me to get in the middle of a good mud-flinging catfight, but just so I'm not misunderstanding the situation, let me just recap what I think you're saying:

The situation is that a live ball was inbounded and legally touched inbounds (the clock should have started), then an official blew the whistle before the ball touched out of bounds, and then the ball was caught by a fan out of bounds. All this happened without the clock ever starting.

I think Jurassic is saying that the correct amount of time to be taken off the clock is the amount of time that elapsed from the legal touching inbounds to the ball touching out of bounds, ignoring the official's inadvertent whistle.

And the other poster is saying that the correct amount of time to be taken off the clock is the amount of time that elapsed from the legal touching inbounds to the official's inadvertent whistle.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You really need to learn some basics, jk. See NFHS fundamental #16 on p74 of the FED rule book.

If I have the above situation correct, then I'm not sure how Fundamental #16 helps make your case, Jurassic. That just says that the whistle "seldom" causes the ball to become dead, because it's usually already dead by the time the whistle blows due to a foul or violation. But if the ball is not already dead, then 6-7-5 says that the ball becomes dead when an official's whistle sounds (unless a try is in flight, which isn't the case here). So Fundamental #16 seems irrelevant to me in this particular situation.

Again, the whistle is completely irrelevant on plays when the clock NEVER started and a timing adjustment needs to be made.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I just don't see what makes you say that the whistle is completely irrelevant. Obviously, you think it has something to do with the fact that the clock didn't start, but I don't (yet) see how that makes a difference.

The officials need definite information as to how much time should be taken off, and when the whistle blew has got nothing to do with establishing that definite information.

If they can determine when the whistle blew (and maybe that's the thing that I'm missing), wouldn't that be the proper signal to stop the clock (whether it's the game clock, or the stopwatch that they're using with the monitor)?

The actual time that elapsed between a legal touch in-bounds until the ball touched OOB is definite information.

Wouldn't the actual time between the legal touch and the whistle also be definite information, if you could determine when the whistle sounded?

Maybe Jurassic is contending that there is no clear evidence in the replay of when the whistle blew, in which case the only other obvious and definitive place to kill the play is when it was touched out of bounds?

(I didn't mean for this post to be Nevada-esque, I was just trying to clarify it in my own mind.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I just don't see what makes you say that the whistle is completely irrelevant. Obviously, you think it has something to do with the fact that the clock didn't start, but I don't (yet) see how that makes a difference.

If they can determine when the whistle blew (and maybe that's the thing that I'm missing), wouldn't that be the proper signal to stop the clock (whether it's the game clock, or the stopwatch that they're using with the monitor)?

Lah me. It's too bad Chuck Elias isn't around. He'd understand the concept, being asked to work the table on a Final Four and all.

There's the obvious thing that you're missing right there, Scrappy. The freaking clock was NEVER started! Howintheheck are you gonna stop something using a whistle that isn't going in the first place?

What next? Are you gonna tell me that if the whistle blew before the ball touched OOB, by rule you now have to go to the POI of an IW? What is the POI of an IW on a throw-in that was legally touched but not controlled under NCAA rules? An AP possession? Maybe give Memphis the ball if they had the arrow? Think about that one!

You're right. You are becoming Nevada-esque. The good news is that I just talked to Dan_ref, and being nice guys, we'll help pay for your lobotomy.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There's the obvious thing that you're missing right there, Scrappy. The freaking clock was NEVER started! Howintheheck are you gonna stop something using a whistle that isn't going in the first place?

I'm not missing that. I get that. Here's what I think you're possibly missing: the ball becomes dead on the inadvertent whistle. Howintheheck can you take more time off the clock after the ball was dead? The ball was live for 0.5 seconds (just for an example), but since the clock wasn't running, we're going to take off 1.1?

I'm just asking. How can you take more time off the clock than the ball was actually live for? If there was a whistle (and again, I didn't see the play or hear a whistle), but if there was a whistle then the ball becomes dead at that point. How can you take time off the clock for a period when the ball was dead?

And I'm not even going to address your POI questions because they're completely irrelevant to the timing question.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Here's what I think you're possibly missing: the ball becomes dead on the inadvertent whistle.

If there was a whistle (and again, I didn't see the play or hear a whistle), but if there was a whistle then the ball becomes dead at that point.

And I'm not even going to address your POI questions because they're completely irrelevant to the timing question.

Humor me anyway, ScrappyDoo. Using your argument above, how would you handle the play now under NCAA rules? You've got an IW on a live ball that was last touched in-bounds by Memphis, but there never was any player or team control established. AP?

[gazebra]

The monitor rule isn't allowed for questions of judgement. The new T clearly blew the whistle and signaled the ball out of bounds. With that being the case, whether or not he blew the call is not relevant to the discussion at the monitor. The play should have been reviewed for only the time that it took to blow the whistle, and as a result only .2 or so should have come off. Not that it would have made a difference in the game, but it would allow for at least a better attempt.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by gazebra

The play should have been reviewed for only the time that it took to blow the whistle, and as a result only .2 or so should have come off. Not that it would have made a difference in the game, but it would allow for at least a better attempt.

How can you say that? Why only .2 seconds? Because the announcers said so? Why not .7 or .5?

The officials reviewed the amount of time they felt should have run off the clock. The clock never started. I would expect a second to come off anyway.

Peace

[BillP73]

Originally Posted by gazebra

The monitor rule isn't allowed for questions of judgement. The new T clearly blew the whistle and signaled the ball out of bounds. With that being the case, whether or not he blew the call is not relevant to the discussion at the monitor. The play should have been reviewed for only the time that it took to blow the whistle, and as a result only .2 or so should have come off. Not that it would have made a difference in the game, but it would allow for at least a better attempt.

That's exactly where I fall into it.

I'm not an official, nor a fan of either team, but I wanted to get others' perspective on this. It appears as if there's no agreement.

I reviewed the NCAA rulebook, and I don't feel what they did was proper. They didn't fix a timing error...they ostensibly fixed what they deemed to be an error in judgment as it pertains to where the ball went out of bounds. There are no provisions in the rulebook (Appendix III, section 6) for them to use replay equipment for that purpose. The call, as made on the court, should've stood as the benchmark for purposes of determining how much went off the clock.

There's no question that the official right near the play called the ball dead at the point it hit on the hardwood in the vicinity of the line. He motioned with his arm, and you can hear a whistle on the video. I can't believe that's being disputed by some of you. Further, the whistle wasn't "inadvertant" by any rational definition. He made a distinct call of a perceived violation.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Humor me anyway, ScrappyDoo. Using your argument above, how would you handle the play now under NCAA rules? You've got an IW on a live ball that was last touched in-bounds by Memphis, but there never was any player or team control established. AP?

There was team control established. Team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower in NCAA. Team control doesn't end until the ball is controlled by the opposite team or released on a shot attempt.

Since the discussions seems to have shifted to this thread, here are my posts from the other thread for discussion.

I know I'm beating a dead horse (or at least a badly limping horse), but the only problem I still have with this is best explained through another hypothetical. With B face-guarding in the backcourt after a made basket, A1 passes to A2 at the middle of the FT line. B1 not seeing the ball tips it with his outstreached hand and it rolls all the way to other end of the court and goes OOB under A's basket. The C for some reason blows his whistle and raises an open hand only a moment after B1 contacts the ball.

Here is where I will put in different options to help me decipher how the original play should be handled. (A)The pass was thrown hard enough that no player from either team would have a chance at recovering the ball (I know this isn't likely given the ball has to bounce 3/4 of the court) or (B) both teams would have had a chance to play the ball but quit on the whistle or (C) A3 or B2 give chase to the ball. Given these scenarios occur in NCAA with a table-side monitor present how do we handle the timing under each of these clock situations (i) the clock does start on the contact with the ball by B1 and is stopped at the whistle, or (ii) the clock properly starts on the contact and stops when the ball goes OOB, or (iii) the clock never starts.

I know this is a bundle, there are some people already frustrated with this thread, and most will say none of these situations is equal to the original, but I'm trying to use a deductive strategy to foster some deep thought, because at the end of the day I was a philosophy major in college and as my wife tells me I like making things more difficult than needs be.
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BTW, my answers to the various scenarios go as follows:

Ai - No timing error, continue with A's ball closest to the spot the ball was at when the whistle sounded (POI).
Aii - A timing error has occured, according to NCAA Rule 5.9.1c the clock is to be stopped when the official signals a violation. The courtside monitor should be used to determine when the clock should have been stopped according to this rule. The ball should be given to A at POI.
Aiii - A timing error has occured, the courtside monitor can be used to rectify the error based on when the clock should have started and should have stopped again based on Rule 5.9.1c. (this I feel is closest to the original situation). Ball to A at the POI.

B and C - I feel that how both teams reacted to the play is not relavent to how this situation should be handled and thus defer to my above answers for B and C situations.

We can talk about ignoring the whistle all day long, but the way I saw it was the T was certainly signaling a violation (OOB). As such the clock should properly be stopped at the point of the signal according to Rule 5.9.1c. I'm pretty sure this included a whistle since hand in the air and air in the whistle are like instinctual reactions for me and go hand in hand, as I'm sure is the case with most officials. It is important to remember Rule 2.2.2 and 2.2.3 when considering how to handle the signal and whistle. We cannot just ignore the whistle and signal because to do so would be to set aside 5.9.1c and rule 2.2.2 and 2.2.3 say we can't set aside another rule or the decision of another official. It was the T's decision to signal OOB and thus we can't set that aside regardless of whether he was right or wrong.

If somebody is interpreting it that the signal wasn't made until the ball touched someone OOB then sure everything was done according to how it should have, I just saw it as the signal came as soon as the ball hit the ground.

Furthermore, I've changed my stance on the stopwatch. The rules to call for a stopwatch to be placed tableside for the use of timing TO's. Not sure it was intended for the way it was used last night, but that's where 2.3 comes in.

In the end it comes down to the question of do we get it right or do we do it by the rules. NCAA Rule 2.2.1 seems to say we do second.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

If somebody is interpreting it that the signal wasn't made until the ball touched someone OOB then sure everything was done according to how it should have, I just saw it as the signal came as soon as the ball hit the ground.

Furthermore, I've changed my stance on the stopwatch. The rules to call for a stopwatch to be placed tableside for the use of timing TO's. Not sure it was intended for the way it was used last night, but that's where 2.3 comes in.

In the end it comes down to the question of do we get it right or do we do it by the rules. NCAA Rule 2.2.1 seems to say we do second.

In all NCAA games, there is supposed to be a stopwatch at the table for various reasons. The shot clock malfunctions and you need a stopwatch to replace it, timing timeouts, and definitely for plays where there was a timer's mistake. In fact I saw a game in the PAC 10 tourney 2 weeks ago that was almost identical to the play. They used a stopwatch to determine how much time elapsed. This is by supervisor edict.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Humor me anyway, ScrappyDoo.

With all due respect, no. The resumption of play is irrelevant. The question is "if the ball was only live for 0.5 seconds (the time from the legal touch of the pass inbounds to the official's whistle), what justification is there for taking more than 0.5 seconds off the clock?".

Until we answer that question -- and no one has yet -- the resumption of play doesn't interest me at all.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

With all due respect, no. The resumption of play is irrelevant. The question is "if the ball was only live for 0.5 seconds (the time from the release of the pass to the official's whistle), what justification is there for taking more than 0.5 seconds off the clock?".

Until we answer that question -- and no one has yet -- the resumption of play doesn't interest me at all.

So on the made basket, the clock starts on the release of the throw-in pass. Kind of racking my brains out trying to find it in the NCAA book.