Kentucky/Mississippi State Lane Violation

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

While you make a nice argument logically, there is nothing that says that the official can't penalize this player who is yet beyond the arc.

That is exactly why I think that we will see an A.R. from the NCAA on this in next year's book.

You're still nucking futs and you still do not understand the rule as written.

There are exactly 2 places a non-shooter may stand during the free throw, from the beginning to the time when he is released by rule. Those 2 places are in a marked lane space or outside the 3 pt line/FT line extended. This is all nicely spelled out in the rules. Also nicely spelled out in the rules is exactly when a player is released from that position. To claim there's confusion, lack of clarity or inconsistency due to how you choose to interpret the word 'remain' is simple minded at best. Under your interpretation (which you already agreed is incorrect btw) a player can legally stand and remain within the 3 pt line/FT line extended as long as he's not in a marked lane space and he takes that position prior to the FT beginning. Again, it's a simple minded & foolish interpretation. In fact, why not also include an AR that states a player is not permitted to run and get a bag of popcorn during the FT?

So go get yourself a nice cool glass of water and join the rest of us here back on planet earth.

[cshs81]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You're still nucking futs and you still do not understand the rule as written.

There are exactly 2 places a non-shooter may stand during the free throw, from the beginning to the time when he is released by rule. Those 2 places are in a marked lane space or outside the 3 pt line/FT line extended. This is all nicely spelled out in the rules. Also nicely spelled out in the rules is exactly when a player is released from that position. To claim there's confusion, lack of clarity or inconsistency due to how you choose to interpret the word 'remain' is simple minded at best. Under your interpretation (which you already agreed is incorrect btw) a player can legally stand and remain within the 3 pt line/FT line extended as long as he's not in a marked lane space and he takes that position prior to the FT beginning. Again, it's a simple minded & foolish interpretation. In fact, why not also include an AR that states a player is not permitted to run and get a bag of popcorn during the FT?

So go get yourself a nice cool glass of water and join the rest of us here back on planet earth.

What is not nicely spelled out is what happens when a player leaves the lane while the ball is being passed to the thrower but BEFORE the ball gets to the thrower. The interpretation question is not a foolish one. If the basis of the violation is assuming that any movement occurs AFTER the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, it does not take into account this EXACT situation.

Again, if the rule says that a player can leave the lane BEFORE the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, logic would say that the official must let him leave in that case and get to his desired legal position.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by cshs81

What is not nicely spelled out is what happens when a player leaves the lane while the ball is being passed to the thrower but BEFORE the ball gets to the thrower. The interpretation question is not a foolish one. If the basis of the violation is assuming that any movement occurs AFTER the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, it does not take into account this EXACT situation.

Again, if the rule says that a player can leave the lane BEFORE the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, logic would say that the official must let him leave in that case and get to his desired legal position.

Who cares if nothing is spelled out in the rule book about a player leaving a marked lane space while the ball is being thrown to the FT shooter? It's completely and totally irrelevant, rules-wise. What happens AFTER the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter IS what is relevant. That's what the rules cover.

What rule states that a player can leave the lane before the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter? And after you cite the rule, would you please explain how and why this rule is pertinent or applicable in this situation?

Again, NCAA rule 9-1-2(g) states that after the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, NO player may be outside a marked lane space and inside the 3-point line. That's the violation that was committed in the above situation, and that's the violation that was called. All that gobblydegook coming from the King of Overthinking is just meaningless. There's no gray area at all on this play. It's a straight-forward call.

[MadCityRef]

Doug Gottlieb of ESPN and the C on the floor had it right. Violation. The other commentator blamed the L and crew for not letting the kid violate, etc. None of the crew told him to leave, Tubby did.
The T and C baled out the L who wanted a do-over by letting UK call the TO. Too often we try to ignore stuff that we shouldn't. This was an obvious get.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What rule states that a player can leave the lane before the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter?

You are approaching this from the wrong direction. You desire a rule which permits the player to leave. There isn't one. However, there is also no rule which prohibits the player from leaving BEFORE the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter. I can turn your question around on you and ask you to cite a rule which PROHIBITS the player from leaving at this time. As you well know, there isn't one.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Again, NCAA rule 9-1-2(g) states that after the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter, NO player may be outside a marked lane space and inside the 3-point line.

Nope, what you say the rule states is simply not true. That may well be what it MEANS, but that is not what it SAYS. I quoted it earlier, and it actually SAYS "shall remain behind..."

Now how does one remain somewhere where one hasn't been? cshs81 is making the point that don't we have to let someone get somewhere before we require him to remain there?

[Mark Dexter]

Anyone know if there's video of this online yet? I'd like to see this play for myself before passing judgement on good ol' J.B. "I'm not bitter" Caldwell.

[Camron Rust]

Nevada has it right. The rules reference "remaining". A player in transition should be allowed to get in/out if the ball is not yet at the disposal of the shooter. If the ref bounces the ball when the player is in transition, the ref should kill the ball immediately (preferably before it reaches the shooter) and restart the FT. This is EXACTLY the same reasoning for killing the FT when the shooter bounces the ball off his foot. No rule exists to allow that but that handling is provided through inpertretation.

[Nevadaref]

Be careful, Camron, if you side with me Dan will call you something nasty and possibly post an accompanying picture (maybe even of a squirrel!).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

. A player in transition should be allowed to get in/out if the ball is not yet at the disposal of the shooter. If the ref bounces the ball when the player is in transition, the ref should kill the ball immediately (preferably before it reaches the shooter) and restart the FT.

Lah me.....

The player WASN't in transition when the L bounced the ball. The player left AFTER the L bounced the ball. The L did NOT bounce the ball when a player on the lane was ALREADY in transition. That's why it's a very simple violation under the rules.

[shave-tail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Anyone know if there's video of this online yet? I'd like to see this play for myself before passing judgement on good ol' J.B. "I'm not bitter" Caldwell.

Ask and ye shall recieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd-hPD3HXu4

[BillyMac]

shave-tail: Thanks.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by shave-tail

Ask and ye shall recieve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd-hPD3HXu4

Looks like J.B. tried to call the do-over (I definately heard him shouting "my time!"), but he didn't hit the whistle until a split second after the shooter had the ball in hand. I think the crew got it right by going with the violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are approaching this from the wrong direction.

Yeah, I know. I'm using an actual, live clear rule instead of a bunch of meaningless gobbleydegook. Silly ol' me.

The player violated NCAA rule 9-1-2(g). That's the only direction that you can come from, by rule. You're basically trying to argue that it's legal for a player to be outside of a lane space and inside the 3-point line when a ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter. Sorry. That's just plain wrong....and stoopid!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I quoted it earlier, and it actually SAYS "shall remain behind..."

How does one "...remain behind..." a place after something begins if he is not behind that place prior to the start of that thing?

[BillyMac]

After watching the video, I've come up with two possible outcomes:

1) If the lead official noticed the player moving out of a marked lane space after the ball was thrown by the official, but before it was caught by the shooter, I think he should have blown his whistle and gotten everything settled down before proceeding. It's all about preventative officiating.

2) If the above didn't happen, then a violation should have been called for a player moving into marked lane space after the ball was at the disposal of the shooter. Real simple violation to call.

Also, it's real easy for us to watch a video and discuss what should have or could have happened, but we all have to remember that the officials had to make a split second decision, take the ball back from the shooter and reset, or call the free throw violation. It officiating was easy, we wouldn't be getting paid the big bucks to do it.