charge or not

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

So, with that philosophy, you don't think B1 should be able to take a charge on A1's running jumpshot around the FT line if A1 pancakes B1 well after the release and just before A1 lands?

Landing spot behind the basket is what I meant. You can't defend a shot from there.

But your example is one spot where the NCAAM rule is great. The bucket counts, call the foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Landing spot behind the basket is what I meant. You can't defend a shot from there.

But your example is one spot where the NCAAM rule is great. The bucket counts, call the foul.

If you can take away a shooter's desired path needed to complete the shot, how is it not defending the shot?

So if the NCAAM's idea is great, why not use it under the basket too.

[Ref in PA]

I had this exact play last night. NCAAM JV game. A1 drove the base line and B1 was set up, not exactly under the basket but close enough. A1 ran B1 over and I called the charge. Coach A did not like the call, but it did not change my mind. The offensive player needs to recognize the positioning of the defenders and adjust accordingly.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

But your example is one spot where the NCAAM rule is great. The bucket counts, call the foul.

And that used to be HS rule too, but I am told that it was changed because it was not being officiated properly. Too many officials were failing to correctly judge whether or not the ball had left the shooter's hand when the contact occurred. Thus the NFHS made it simple. They could have said that the shot always counts, but they elected to go with it never counts on a PC.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

I had this exact play last night. NCAAM JV game. A1 drove the base line and B1 was set up, not exactly under the basket but close enough. A1 ran B1 over and I called the charge. Coach A did not like the call, but it did not change my mind. The offensive player needs to recognize the positioning of the defenders and adjust accordingly.

Funny you say this because I had it last night as well in JV boys game (NCAA rules). In my case the defender moved under the basket after A1 took off for the layup. B1 realized he was not there in time and backed up to give the player room to land, as he landed B1 had some contact with A1 and IMO flopped back on his butt. I had NO CALL on the play as A1 was able to complete his layup and B took himself out of the play. No advantage/disadvantage was my judgement.

[btaylor64]

It is like JRut said. There is no one size fits all. We all need to understand that officiating is not an exact science, but instead it is an art, and depending on whether your art is beautiful or not is in the eye of the assignor you work for.

I personally call a block or no call a play when a secondary defender comes in and attempts to take a charge underneath the basket. If it is a primary defender then I just see the play through. Just to add something to this. I will call an offensive foul on an offensive player being defended by a secondary defender if the offensive player does something overt (i.e., leading with the foot or wiping out with the off hand, etc.)

People who are rule book officials are trying to make this a science and hence we would just be better off having robots referee the game. As an art there is room for human understanding and conception.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1) I personally call a block or no call a play when a secondary defender comes in and attempts to take a charge underneath the basket. If it is a primary defender then I just see the play through.

2) People who are rule book officials are trying to make this a science and hence we would just be better off having robots referee the game. As an art there is room for human understanding and conception.

1) I personally believe that is absolutely terrible advice unless you're working in the NBA or doing a NCAA Womens college game. And believe me, Mr. Taylor is not working in the NBA and I doubt very much that he's doing Womens college games either, seeing that he had never officiated a high school game at any level in his life before this season started. What he is advocating goes not only goes completely against the direction of both the NFHS and NCAA Mens rule books, but it also goes against the way that supervisors and evaluators want the play called.

2) What gives you the right to make statements like that? You don't have the officiating experience to judge anybody, let alone judge experienced high school and college officials. All you're doing is trying to regurgitate something that you heard at one of your Jr. NBA/rec league games. That's nothing but rec league, Old School talk. Rule book officials are officials that know the rules. Well, you've certainly proved with your previous posts that you're not a rulebook official. If you would like to contest that, I'll be glad to go back and re-post some of your greatest hits.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) I personally believe that is absolutely terrible advice unless you're working in the NBA or doing a NCAA Womens college game. And believe me, Mr. Taylor is not working in the NBA and I doubt very much that he's doing Womens college games either, seeing that he had never officiated a high school game at any level in his life before this season started. What he is advocating goes not only goes completely against the direction of both the NFHS and NCAA Mens rule books, but it also goes against the way that supervisors and evaluators want the play called.

2) What gives you the right to make statements like that? You don't have the officiating experience to judge anybody, let alone judge experienced high school and college officials. All you're doing is trying to regurgitate something that you heard at one of your Jr. NBA/rec league games. That's nothing but rec league, Old School talk. Rule book officials are officials that know the rules. Well, you've certainly proved with your previous posts that you're not a rulebook official. If you would like to contest that, I'll be glad to go back and re-post some of your greatest hits.

You're exactly right JR, I am not a rule book ref nor do I hope and have aspirations of being one. Now do I not know the rules? No. I know them quite well. I am a true believer in having rules knowledge, but there is a difference in knowing the rules and knowing what they are and the purpose that they are there to serve.

Jurassic, don't act like you know what I do, where I've been or what I have done. You know maybe a quarter of what I've done or where I've been. I don't attack you, do I? I don't expect you to attack me. All the advice that I give on here has been given to me by the highest ranking officials in the game today, so if there are people on here who want to move up to the college or higher level, they should probably heed this as being pretty dang true. I'll tell you right now I could name two different HS assingors who would want this play called different ways. One would want the block under the basket and the other would want the offensive foul. It just depends on who the assignor is and where they are coming from. The first assignor I mentioned is a D1 official and the other has worked HS all his life. That is the difference and that is ok, I understand where both are coming from.

What JR, did #2 sound too good that it couldn't have come out of a 20 something yr. olds mouth? As stupid and "regurgitated" as it sounds these are the truths of the game today and if people want to work higher level ball then they will understand and adapt. I've had to because of some of things, such as this play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

What JR, did #2 sound too good that it couldn't have come out of a 20 something yr. olds mouth?

Yup, especially a 20 something yr. old that had never done high school game at any level in his life before this year. And as for that working college nonsense, you don't know enough about NCAA rules or mechanics to work at that level.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...877#post334877

Methinks that maybe doing some rec league games and going to a camp really doesn't make you the expert that you try to portray.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, especially a 20 something yr. old that had never done high school game at any level in his life before this year. And as for that working college nonsense, you don't know enough about NCAA rules or mechanics to work at that level.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...877#post334877

Methinks that maybe doing some rec league games and going to a camp really doesn't make you the expert that you try to portray.

Once again, you have no idea what I have done or where I have been. I did HS games before, and a ton of them at that, but I had just never reffed a regular season one until this year.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Once again, you have no idea what I have done or where I have been. I did HS games before, and a ton of them at that, but I had just never reffed a regular season one until this year.

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight but I can't help but wonder what this means.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight but I can't help but wonder what this means.

It means he's another rec league warrior. We've gone through this before with him. He thinks that if you do college-age players in a summer league, you're a college official. Kinda like a young Old School. He's now a first year high-school official, and he still hasn't posted whether his first year also includes his first real, live high school varsity game either.

As you saw above, he keeps insisting that NBA rules should be used in NFHS/NCAA situations, as exemplified by their block/charge rule under the basket. Saying not to call charges on secondary defenders under the basket is just typical of his posts. Of course, he also insists among other things that whacking the board but not touching the ball or basket while doing so is BI. Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

[chartrusepengui]

Hey - I am an educator of the arts (music) and my administrators are always taking $$$$ from me to give to weight rooms and athletics. When did BB become an art? I wanna know so I can hit up my administration for more $$$$$. :-)

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

I agree JR. Please stick to answers that are backed by legitimate rules and not hear say on the courts. This is tough enough without adding confusion.
Thanks

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It means he's another rec league warrior. We've gone through this before with him. He thinks that if you do college-age players in a summer league, you're a college official. Kinda like a young Old School. He's now a first year high-school official, and he still hasn't posted whether his first year also includes his first real, live high school varsity game either.

As you saw above, he keeps insisting that NBA rules should be used in NFHS/NCAA situations, as exemplified by their block/charge rule under the basket. Saying not to call charges on secondary defenders under the basket is just typical of his posts. Of course, he also insists among other things that whacking the board but not touching the ball or basket while doing so is BI. Maybe I shouldn't get ticked off so much, but his nonsense doesn't help the education of new officials reading this forum.

I'll take the high road and just say that you can believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe that I am a "rec league warrior" that is fine. I appreciate you trying to discredit me. There are less than a handful of people on this forum who have seen me work, and you are not one of them, so I ask kindly please don't attempt to discredit me if you haven't seen me work or if you don't know about my rules knowledge. Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.