charge or not

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.

Well, that tells me a lot about your association's standards. If they think it's OK for their officials to apply NBA rules and philosophies to high school games instead of teaching you the proper and appropriate rules, mechanics, etc. to use, then you're probably in the right place. Hey, use or make up whatever rules and mechanics that you want to. I could care less, and apparently your association could care less too. When you recommend that other officials should follow your lead though, well, I'm guess that I'm just gonna have to differ with you.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Do I follow the rules to a perfect T. No, I don't and posts on the forum show that. Does that make me a horrible referee. In your eyes and others, maybe, but not in the eyes of the people I work for and work with.

Thus the reason the rules committee felt the need to make this a POE this year, as stated in another Thread by I think Nevada...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

Thus the reason the rules committee felt the need to make this a POE this year, as stated in another Thread by I think Nevada...

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Peace

[Splute]

Isn't that the reason they created the Case Book? To actually provide situations that indicate the "intent" of the rule? Thus allowing officials to apply those cases to others that, although may not be exact to the letter, but are similar in intent of the rule... IMO officials should not waiver from the fundamentals of the rules. I do not believe you will see every violation; but to not apply a rule because you dont agree with it or dont feel it was really that bad this time seems unthinkable to me. Perhaps my thoughts will change as I learn and see more. I do realize many of the violations are judgement calls.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Do you think that it's OK in the "real world" to apply the NBA/NCAA Womens block/charge rule with the circle and secondary defender etc. to games played under NFHS rules? Do you think that it's OK in a high school game to call a block on a defender with LGP because that defender is standing under the basket? If you like the NBA rules better, then feel free to use 'em in your high school games too, just like Btaylor.

If you go back and read a few posts, you'll find that it's got nothing at all to do with an official applying any rule by the letter. It's about an official ignoring the rules completely and trying to apply his very own rules and philosophies to situations where they aren't relevant or appropriate at all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you think that it's OK in the "real world" to apply the NBA/NCAA Womens block/charge rule with the circle and secondary defender etc. to games played under NFHS rules? Do you think that it's OK in a high school game to call a block on a defender with LGP because that defender is standing under the basket? If you like the NBA rules better, then feel free to use 'em in your high school games too, just like Btaylor.

You keep talking about what is OK as if that means something. What is OK is not the issue from my point of view. It does not even enter the equation. I am not just a HS official and I have had to do things I do not feel it "OK" in order to keep my job.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you go back and read a few posts, you'll find that it's got nothing at all to do with an official applying any rule by the letter. It's about an official ignoring the rules completely and trying to apply his very own rules and philosophies to situations where they aren't relevant or appropriate at all.

That is your interpretation of the situation and that is your right to feel that way. But once again we all make decisions in the real world based on something we were instructed to do. You are not the only assignor in the country and most of us do not work for you. You have a philosophy which I completely understand, but it is not what everyone has to work under. You might like that reality, but after all this is a reality. Once again, what is the punishment from the NF if a particular official does not follow a rule to the letter? Absolutely nothing, just like what is going to happen by having this conversation. I like the passion, but that does not mean you are right.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is your interpretation of the situation and that is your right to feel that way. But once again we all make decisions in the real world based on something we were instructed to do. You are not the only assignor in the country and most of us do not work for you. You have a philosophy which I completely understand, but it is not what everyone has to work under. You might like that reality, but after all this is a reality. Once again, what is the punishment from the NF if a particular official does not follow a rule to the letter? Absolutely nothing, just like what is going to happen by having this conversation. I like the passion, but that does not mean you are right.

I understand your point. I've already said that if if Btaylor's association thinks that he's doing the right thing and they don't have a problem with it, which they obviously don't, then they can both knock themselves out. I could care less. They're not advocating bending the rules; they're advocating ignoring them completely and using their own rules. Imo, that's terrible advice for officials outside their association. That's my point.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule."
Peace

True indeed. However, there are some that will, when the rule is completely unabmiguous in both the letter and the spirit, still chose to not adhere to it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

True indeed. However, there are some that will, when the rule is completely unabmiguous in both the letter and the spirit, still chose to not adhere to it.

I would agree with this as well.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, there is a real world and there is the rulebook. Not all things are defined clearly by the rulebook. If you actually read the rulebook, the rulebook actually talks about the "Spirit of the Rule." If you ask me the NF double talks on many levels. If there is a rule they think is not being applied by the letter, then they need to make it a POE. Just saying "do not do this or else" without any description is rather silly if you ask me. Once again, the NF does not hire officials, hire assignors or give post season games. If they want to start doing that, then and only then can they get on talk about what officials should or should not realistically do. The very people that want to talk about how to apply this rule by the letter are some of the very people that if we were to switch this conversation to another rule, they would use a personal or widely used application of that rule.

Peace

This is what I was pretty much trying to say. I am not advocating using strictly NBA rules for college and HS games, but I do say this knowing that I have been told this by D1 officials themselves is that a defender under the basket is doing nothing more than trying to draw a cheap offensive foul. What I mean by under the basket, and what I picture it in my mind is almost directly under the backboard (maybe a little further out), not at the part of the rim that is farthest from the backboard. That doesn't seem like a big difference, but to me. To me it is the difference in a block and an offensive foul.

Also like JRut said, I am just doing what I have been taught and was also told if I do it this way then I will get to where I want to be, and to me that sounds like the thing to do.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is what I was pretty much trying to say. I am not advocating using strictly NBA rules for college and HS games, but I do say this knowing that I have been told this by D1 officials themselves is that a defender under the basket is doing nothing more than trying to draw a cheap offensive foul. What I mean by under the basket, and what I picture it in my mind is almost directly under the backboard (maybe a little further out), not at the part of the rim that is farthest from the backboard. That doesn't seem like a big difference, but to me. To me it is the difference in a block and an offensive foul.

Also like JRut said, I am just doing what I have been taught and was also told if I do it this way then I will get to where I want to be, and to me that sounds like the thing to do.

And as JR said, if you're calling a block on a defender with LGP in games played under NFHS rules, and your association is teaching that, then I guess that it isn't really your fault that you belong to one piss-poor association. Teaching a new official to deliberately ignore a plainly written rule is just plain ridiculous. Sad.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is what I was pretty much trying to say. I am not advocating using strictly NBA rules for college and HS games, but I do say this knowing that I have been told this by D1 officials themselves is that a defender under the basket is doing nothing more than trying to draw a cheap offensive foul. What I mean by under the basket, and what I picture it in my mind is almost directly under the backboard (maybe a little further out), not at the part of the rim that is farthest from the backboard. That doesn't seem like a big difference, but to me. To me it is the difference in a block and an offensive foul.

Also like JRut said, I am just doing what I have been taught and was also told if I do it this way then I will get to where I want to be, and to me that sounds like the thing to do.

By proper rules application you have a charge.

In real world application, you may have a no-call.

In no reality, without a half circle, you never have a block.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And as JR said, if you're calling a block on a defender with LGP in games played under NFHS rules, and your association is teaching that, then I guess that it isn't really your fault that you belong to one piss-poor association. Teaching a new official to deliberately ignore a plainly written rule is just plain ridiculous. Sad.

So you're saying I can't even have a no call on this? I can't deem this incidental contact after the shot was already released? I guess all people who no call plays in block charge situations are blatantly ignoring the rule, because you have to have something. Either he was there or he wasn't. Right? And I guarantee you that my association would get more plays right then yours ever dream of getting right. This sort of sounds like you doesn't it? Criticizing someone or a group that you have never seen work, but don't worry I am sure if you are their boss they are just horrible officials? jk

[Ref in PA]

With all block/charge situations I think you would have to see the play. This is a call that is very judgemental and changes from ref to ref. I have called charges, blocks, and let plays go because I felt the contact was incidental. It is impossible to tell you exactly what I would call until I saw a play.

In the world of internet play descriptions, interpretations have to given in black and white. B1 has lgp. A1 crashes into B1. The call should be charge on A1 every time regardless of the location of B1 - why? Because we have to make a ruling on what the rules say, not on some play we might envision.

I cannot tell you the number of times I have heard senior officials in interpretations meetings or at camps say "Call it this way" and then see them call the exact opposite when in a game situation. They may want to think one way, but when faced with an actual game play, they make a call based on the action and contact.

In the world of btaylor64, B1 is in a no win situation. If he stays put and keeps the lgp, he will be called for a block. If B1 gives up that position and aggressive challenges A1, mostly likely B1 will be called for a foul. It would take a rare, outstanding defensive play to defend A1 in the sitch - and even then B1 might still be whistled for the foul. If he backs out, his only hope is for A1 to miss the layup. Somehow, I cannot imagine btaylor calling a block on B1 if he was standing in place while A1 goes coast to coast and crashed into B1. If that is what he is envisioning, then I cannot agree with him.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So you're saying I can't even have a no call on this? I And I guarantee you that my association would get more plays right then yours ever dream of getting right. This sort of sounds like you doesn't it? Criticizing someone or a group that you have never seen work, but don't worry I am sure if you are their boss they are just horrible officials? jk

Nope, I'm saying that you can NEVER have a BLOCK on a defender with LGP, as you have stated several times should be called. And I'm also saying that any association that would teach you such complete and utter boolsh!t is just a piss-poor excuse for an official's organization.

That's my opinion and it's firmly on the record, and also I have a pretty good idea what association you belong to and where it's located.