Scorekeeping issues

[dkmz17]

What do you do when the "official scorekeeper" is probably a high school kid recruited to work a middle school tournament and there is no way for you to have some one sit at the table next to him?

We always check the book at halftime and did in this game with it being correct when we checked it. However, after we checked it the home team coach took the "official book" from the table to her bench area. Next thing we know, halfway thru the 3rd quarter, our best player suddenly has 5 fouls when she should have 4. We try to get the officials come to the table to straighten -- what we think is a problem -- out, but with no help. Further, the scorer's table simply tells us to leave them alone and is not interested in whether there might have been a mistake. A check during the break at the quarter shows, according to our book, the the official scorer gave our player (#10) and foul that should have been given to #1. The table still wasn't interested in talking to us and said, "you're winning the game, why do you care."

My main complaint was, one, the officials showed no interest, and two, the table never seemed interested. Any suggestions?

[BktBallRef]

#1, the official book should never leave the table. Your scorer should have notified you and you should have notified the referee before the 3rd quarter began.

#2, if you have an issue with the table and need a correction made, you request a timeout and discuss the issue with the referee. Pleas from the sideline doesn't get it done.

[williebfree]

As an experienced official who works quite a few of these middle school tournaments, I can tell you how nice it is to have a mature, responsible table crew.

One HUGE plus to this whole process is having calm and impartial bookkeepers with each team who work togather to get the job done. As you are aware, this can, and more often than not, is more difficult than said.

Possible solutions:

Have your team's bookkeeper sit at the "official" scorer&timer table. Then you can address the "errors" at their occurance.

If there is not physical space available to "share" at the scorer's table, have the bookkeeper sit as close to the table as possible and have an ongoing flow of communication.

If problems persist, contact game managmement for further redress.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

What do you do when the "official scorekeeper" is probably a high school kid recruited to work a middle school tournament and there is no way for you to have some one sit at the table next to him?

...

My main complaint was, one, the officials showed no interest, and two, the table never seemed interested. Any suggestions?

Apathy is hard to fight. I usually just give-up and try to ignore it.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

What do you do when the "official scorekeeper" is probably a high school kid recruited to work a middle school tournament and there is no way for you to have some one sit at the table next to him?

...

My main complaint was, one, the officials showed no interest, and two, the table never seemed interested. Any suggestions?

Seriously this time. Document the issue and send to the league/conference administration, send a copy to the schools involved.

[chartrusepengui]

Did a MS tourny 2 weeks ago with same type of problem. Two adjacent courts with timers at same table facing opposite directions. Our guys seemed more interested in the other game and we often found them facing the wrong direction. We spoke with them and tournament management. They in turn spoke with the kids at the table. Didn't work!

Coaches were GREAT. They had their people doing the books sit at end of bench closest to center court and when we reported we saw them talking to one another to keep things straight. My partner(s) and I designated them "official" scorekeepers and things went smoothly. I later learned the kids got "docked" whatever pay they were to receive.

[steve33]

This sounds exactly like my issue I posed in the other thread.

The main problem we find is having the book placed not at the designated X at half-court, and almost always right next to the home bench.

[Junker]

At a middle school tournament, you are going to get what you get for table help and sometimes even officials. It stinks, but that is what is available at those levels. I know this isn't much help, but you have to remember that a middle school tournament is a little lower on the priority list, it shouldn't be, but it is.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

What do you do when the "official scorekeeper" is probably a high school kid recruited to work a middle school tournament and there is no way for you to have some one sit at the table next to him?

This happened to me at a MSG game in Fall '05. The home team had one of its non-participating players doing the book and during the A game, there was a descrepancy in total team fouls. (I didn't make a big deal out of it since it had no impact on the game). But for the B game, I decided I was going to side as close to the table as possible and make the home team scorer follow Rule 2-11 as close to the letter as possible.

Originally Posted by dkmz17

We always check the book at halftime and did in this game with it being correct when we checked it. However, after we checked it the home team coach took the "official book" from the table to her bench area. (....) Any suggestions?

I had this happen a few weeks ago at a CYO game. I got there late and the game ended up starting 5 minutes early. I had just enough time to get the home team's numbers and last names entered into my scoresheet, so I figured "I'll just get their first names at halftime."

Well, halftime comes, and I go to the home score to copy the first names into my scoresheet, and the book is missing. I asked him where the book was and he told me the home coach took it to the locker room. I let him know that was not supposed to happen.

Well, halftime ends, and the home scorebook is still missing. So the officials made me official scorer for the second half as the book remained AWOL for the game. I also let the home coach know that at home games, she risks being T'd up if she does that again. Of course she didn't seem to care.

One thing I do with scoring is use a different color pen for each period (quarter or half as appropriate) and reverse the slash direction after halftime ( / becomes \ ) in case there is any question or dispute over fouls or time outs called.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

One thing I do with scoring is use a different color pen for each period (quarter or half as appropriate) and reverse the slash direction after halftime ( / becomes \ ) in case there is any question or dispute over fouls or time outs called.

Professional at Work.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Apathy is hard to fight. I usually just give-up and try to ignore it.

I'd comment, but I really don't care to.

[SMEngmann]

Let's see we have an official going off on a fan, making a bad 3 seconds call and then chasing a coach out of the building after being called a moron, and then in another game (I hope it was another game....) the scorebook goes AWOL and the scorekeeper and the home team are making up fouls on the visiting. Sounds like you watch, or your kid plays in one screwed up middle school league

At this point I think the original poster is being disingenuous with these situations and is here just to vent about perceived slights that happened to his team. Sure this situation mentioned in this thread could have happened, but I don't see why anyone would intentionally distort the fouls and foul out the best player on a middle school team. The only recourse is to keep your own book. There are a lot of sleazy people in middle school basketball (especially on the coaching side), but I can't imagine seeing blatant cheating like this in what is essentially a meaningless game, but if you're worried about it, keep your own book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

There are a lot of sleazy people in middle school basketball (especially on the coaching side)

There's a lot of 'em in the stands too. They're called fans.

[Bobby]

Some of the newer books I've seen don't even have a team foul or possession space on them. It's hard to work a game when you can't even do so, so I've had at least one case where the official didn't even keep the official book available for us in one game that I had to get my flash drive, load the modified FIBA scoresheet (I used MS Word to create a FIBA-style scoresheet, except I modified it for 7/10 team fouls in a half and possession arrow boxes), and make copies just to play the game. Hank Nichols would probably be the one to ask how to do a FIBA book.

What I've done to rectify the lack of a team foul counter on the book is adopt FIBA procedure and take the portable scoreboards used for the youth side court games and use it to count fouls (FIBA regulations require a counter on the table to count team fouls). The referees have found it easier to play that way, but when I'm out of town on business, the other scorer doesn't use it, and referees complain when they don't use the counter.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

What do you do when the "official scorekeeper" is probably a high school kid recruited to work a middle school tournament and there is no way for you to have some one sit at the table next to him?

Find a way. Rule 2-11-11 makes it clear that the visiting scorer and the official scorer should always be communicating. If the guest book does not care to sit at the table they are not required to, but they cannot be refused and if they clearly wish to be near the official book then a way must be found - otherwise, it is not possible for the scorer to comply with 2-11-11.