Scorekeeping

[oppool]

Here is a strange ruling in OBR and I wonder how it would be recorded in the different softball org.

SIT: bases loaded 2 outs B6 swings and misses a pitch but during swing is obstructed by catcher and is awarded 1st R1 comes in to score. In the scorebook this goes down as E2 but the run counts as a earned run against the pitcher this actually happen this week in a MLB game it took a couple days for them to correct because the scorekeeper didnt know that the run should count against the pitcher ERA


I know this is not quite a umpire question but thought this ruling was very strange and totally different than anything I was told when keeping score so just wondered how this would go down in our books

Thanks

Don

[bluezebra]

Here's the rule on:

"EARNED RUNS

10.18 An earned run is a run for which the pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls.

(a) An earned run shall be charged every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder's choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike which permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance.

(1) A wild pitch is solely the pitcher's fault, and contributes to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk.

(b) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner who reaches first base

(1) on a hit or otherwise after his time at bat is prolonged by a muffed foul fly;

(2) because of interference or obstruction or

(3) because of any fielding error.

(c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose life is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play.

(d) No run shall be earned when the runner's advance is aided by an error, a passed ball, or defensive interference or obstruction, if the scorer judges that the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay.

(e) An error by a pitcher is treated exactly the same as an error by any other fielder in computing earned runs.

(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless."

Unless there are other circumstances you didn't list, 3 (c) covers it. Should NOT be an earned run.

Bob

[oppool]

Bob,

Here the quote from the news article "seems a little-known rule in baseball's scoring system says that even though the catcher is assigned an error when he interferes with a batter, the error is not recognized when counting earned runs."

Sounds strange to me and I am sure Darren Oliver who this accounted against his ERA thinks so to since his ERA is 7.85
All 3 runs that were scored that inning after the "catchers interference" counted against the ERA

Don

[Edited by oppool on May 5th, 2001 at 05:01 PM]

[bluezebra]

Don:

Apparently the rule is so little-known it's not in the rule book. I don't trust newspaper, tv or radio reporters when it comes to rules. There aren't two who know a foul ball from a foul tip. I'll still go with 10.18 (c) (d).

Bob

[oppool]

Bob,

I believe this is falling under rule 10.04a which states "Credit the batter with a RBI which a run is forced over the plate by a reason of the batter becoming a runner with the bases loaded(on a base on balls, or an award of 1st base for being touched by a pitched ball, or for interference or obstruction call) I believe if you gave the batter a RBI on this play than you have gave the pitcher a earned run against his ERA



My guess

Don

[bluezebra]

Don:

Pretty good reasoning, but an RBI isn't necessarily an earned run.

Bob

[oppool]

True Bob

But you cant normaly get a RBI either when there are 2 outs and an error is scored so what I think they are saying is the runners that were on base before the interfernce call that forced the run in is the pitchers responibility even with 2 outs

Just guessing again

Don

[bluezebra]

Don:

If you can give me the date and the teams, I'll do a little research on the game.

Bob

[oppool]

Bob

It was the Texas Rangers vs. Detriot Tigers on 05/02 Darren Oliver was Texas pitcher that this happen too.

See what you can find out


Thanks

Don

[bluezebra]

Don:

Oliver was charged with seven (7) runs, four (4) of them earned. Here's the recap of that inning:

"Tony Clark hit an RBI single before Palmer's two-run double made it 7-0 in the second. Those three unearned runs came right after a catcher's interference call against Doug Mirabelli, on a play that Higginson had apparently made the third out with a liner that Oliver caught."

This is from:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/2001/20010502/recap/dettex.html

These are Oliver's stats to date: 28 runs, 25 earned.

So it seems it's another case of a media moron spouting off about something he has no knowledge of.


Bob

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Noooooo Bob........

Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan know everything........along with all the other wonderful baseball sportscasters out there.

How can we question the knowledge of such individuals?

Joel

ps.......I think I once heard a commentator get one right.......but I coulda' been dreaming.........or just one of those nights I had one too many adult beverages.........(grin)

[bluezebra]

Joel:

Is it difficult to type with your tongue in your cheek? Three times I emailed the Cubs' tv announcers about the difference between a foul ball and a foul tip. Never got a response, and they still make the mistake. I worked for an air courier service 15 years ago and we did work for CBS Sports in LA. I got phone friendly with the woman in charge, and offered to talk (for free and no recognition) to their football announcers about the difference between fumbles and muffs, and a few others. Her reply was, these peoples egos are so big they wouldn't listen to Jim Tunney, never mind me.

The big problem is that the public thinks these jerks know more than the officials. Many years ago, the Rams announcer and color guy (Dick Bass) couldn't understand that when the offense holds in their own end zone, it's a safety if accepted.

I have believed for years that these clowns giving false info to the public are indirectly resposible for attacks on officials.

Time to get off my soap box.

Bob

Bob

[oppool]

Bob

I dont think espn has updated their site on this yet if you go into http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo....ion&lid=105196

It show correction on Olivers ERA which is now 7.85 instead of the 7.22 which espn site is showing

You may not be able to get into this site if you dont have a Yahoo account if you do go into the Richard Cranium league and on the left hand side there is a site for baseball correction which you click on to get the info. I've also sent the question on a web site claims to be baseball experts for an answer will let you know when I hear back


Thanks

Don

[Edited by oppool on May 6th, 2001 at 09:29 PM]

[bluezebra]

Don:

USA Today stats also show 7.85 era, but with 28 runs, 25 earned runs.

I'll wait to hear from you re: that other site you mention.

Bob

[bluezebra]

Don:

Just checked the latest issue of Baseball Weekly. The ruling WAS changed. Oliver was charged with 7 runs, 6 earned.

Bob