Blarge--does it exist?

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

JoeAdvantage, IRef4Him and MTD Sr. are all basically saying that they would apply the NCAA Womens ruling to all NFHS and NCAA Mens situations, even though both of those ruleset rulings are completely different

I would like to ask a question to those in the "call it as I want to" category.

If you are in the last 5 seconds of a High School Championship game with the score tied and there is a blarge. Both coaches are former officials and know the rule. Are you going to handle it per the rule book or your own rules?

It sure seems that the smart way of handling this situation is to do what the rule book says so that you are in the clear.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree, I don't understand the term "baited breath." I do, however, understand the similar-sounding phrase "bated breath."

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, shut (all the way) up.

I love multiple-use posts...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

I would like to ask a question to those in the "call it as I want to" category.

If you are in the last 5 seconds of a High School Championship game with the score tied and there is a blarge. Both coaches are former officials and know the rule. Are you going to handle it per the rule book or your own rules?

It sure seems that the smart way of handling this situation is to do what the rule book says so that you are in the clear.

There were a number of threads lately about all games being equally important. With that in mind...how about if this was a Tuesday afternoon 4th grade CYO contest coached by first-time Bob Knight wannabe's?

[iref4him]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you saying that case book play 4.19.8SitC doesn't exist? Or that it should never be followed? Even if both officials have already made conflicting signals?

Please explain what you're getting at. I'm not quite sure.

NO I am not saying that it doesn't exist. What I am getting at is that if we have 4 eyes on the ball in the block/charge, then we don't trust our partner. The other thing is what is happening wiht the other players. We talk about primaries and trusting our partner, etc. I'm not saying it can't happen, I've seen it. Even though it is in the case book, what about the mechanics and officials manual - primaries, Who the play is coming to, etc.

A blarge is a bail out for crews who won't stick to the mechanics, IMO!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by iref4him

NO I am not saying that it doesn't exist. What I am getting at is that if we have 4 eyes on the ball in the block/charge, then we don't trust our partner. The other thing is what is happening wiht the other players. We talk about primaries and trusting our partner, etc. I'm not saying it can't happen, I've seen it. Even though it is in the case book, what about the mechanics and officials manual - primaries, Who the play is coming to, etc.

C'mon, not this tired argument.

The blarge is most likely to happen in cases where 4 eyes *should* be on the dribbler. If A1 is driving into the lane against a sea of defenders from the top of the key I'm not worried about who's watching "the other players". In this case we might even have 6 eyes "on the ball", at least until the shot goes up or he kicks it out.

I agree it's a break down in mechanics, but the breakdown is not because of where the officials were looking.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by iref4him

NO I am not saying that it doesn't exist. What I am getting at is that if we have 4 eyes on the ball in the block/charge, then we don't trust our partner. The other thing is what is happening wiht the other players. We talk about primaries and trusting our partner, etc. I'm not saying it can't happen, I've seen it. Even though it is in the case book, what about the mechanics and officials manual - primaries, Who the play is coming to, etc.

A blarge is a bail out for crews who won't stick to the mechanics, IMO!

That's right, because there are no dual coverage areas. There will never be a time when both officials could legitimately have their eyes on the ball. That's right, no matter where the ball is, it is never okay to have two officials see the same play and blow their whistle right away.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's right, because there are no dual coverage areas. There will never be a time when both officials could legitimately have their eyes on the ball. That's right, no matter where the ball is, it is never okay to have two officials see the same play and blow their whistle right away.

Snaqwells, you are absolutely correct....what would happen if say, you and I were working a game, and I had a foul, but I didn't get the shooter....and you were looking there and helped me out with that ....we would have anarchy....why would I ever want you to help me out there...why why why LOL....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by iref4him

1) NO I am not saying that it doesn't exist.

2) I'm not saying it can't happen, I've seen it.

1) Well, I'd check that out if I were you because someone must be using your computer. Someone calling themself iref4him posted the following yesterday at 6:36pm--"There is no blarge!".

2) You also said in your own words verbatim in that post....
-"I said that if we have a blarge, then it will be either a block or charge."
- "I said that we are going to have a block or a charge, not a blarge."

I was just pointing out that you are saying, as per your statements above, that you would not follow the procedures laid out in case book play 4.19.8SitC and call the double foul. Iow, you would simply ignore the NFHS ruling. Is that correct?

Just making sure that everyone understands where you're coming from in this discussion.....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If this was an NFHS game, then I'm 100% sure that YOU kicked it.

On the play you describe, once the Trail signaled a block and you signaled a charge, you need to correctly apply the rules as written in 4.19.8SitC.
The visiting coach had every right to insist that a blocking foul was also reported on the play.

4.19.8 sit C reads: One official calls a blocking foul.........the other official calls a charging foul.

Signals are not mentioned. Is a signal binding? I think not. I make wrong signals all the time....well, not all the time. Just sometimes. Usually about
8:15. As I read this situation, you call a blarge if neither official is willing to change his call. This is not something I would hope to see happen, but if it does, (and it has happened to me) I prefer to confer quickly (What you got?) and come out with one call. We are not talking about two players simultaneously slapping each other on the arm, we are talking about contact on at least one player's torso. The definitions of block and charge speak for themselves.They can not possibly happen at the same time. I know, double foul definition includes the word approximately. Still, I say the two officials should get together, decide who did what to whom and which happened first, call it and forget it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's right, because there are no dual coverage areas. There will never be a time when both officials could legitimately have their eyes on the ball. That's right, no matter where the ball is, it is never okay to have two officials see the same play and blow their whistle right away.

You mean a player can't have one foot below the FT line and one foot above? Or one foot in the lane on the trail's side and one foot out? Guess we have quantum players now! They can be on either side of a line but not on the line???

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You mean a player can't have one foot below the FT line and one foot above? Or one foot in the lane on the trail's side and one foot out? Guess we have quantum players now! They can be on either side of a line but not on the line???

Did you miss the sarcasm or are you extending it?

[RookieDude]

Late...

I agree with Rich, MTD Sr., Joeadvantage, and whom(who)ever else pregames that if a blarge happens...get together and decide one or the other.

Beat me, whip me, shoot me...with apologies to the rule book purists...but, lets just say I don't understand this case book play...therefore, I must enforce this situation just as my crew and I pregamed.

Oh yeah...we pregame other situations too...such as, advantage/disadvantage, 3 seconds in the key, coaches boxes, assistants off the bench when they are not suppose to be, profanity by a player (under his breath), etc. Maybe not every pregame...but, get the point.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Late...

I agree with Rich, MTD Sr., Joeadvantage, and whom(who)ever else pregames that if a blarge happens...get together and decide one or the other.

Beat me, whip me, shoot me...with apologies to the rule book purists...but, lets just say I don't understand this case book play...therefore, I must enforce this situation just as my crew and I pregamed.

And when Coach ###*(*(* comes to you and says "I thought per the rulebook if 2 officials display conflicting foul calls in this situation then the officials are supposed to issue a double foul?" (remember, I'm playing the role of a coach, thus improper terms in my question )

What is your answer to said coach?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And when Coach ###*(*(* comes to you and says "I thought per the rulebook if 2 officials display conflicting foul calls in this situation then the officials are supposed to issue a double foul?" (remember, I'm playing the role of a coach, thus improper terms in my question )

What is your answer to said coach?

"Really, Coach...I think the rulebook also says something about Coach's not stepping out of their boxes too."

or (if the Coach is actually standing squarely in his box)

"Coach, we pregame this kinda stuff...one official had it one way, and the other offical had it the other way...we got together and determined who had the best look."

If the Coach continues...then, "Coach, we'd do the same for you if it was the other way." Then move on...

Interesting discussion. I do girls in NY (NCAAW rules, NFHS for boys). Why? Don't know.
According to the NYSGBOA on a double whistle foul (2-man), the call goes to the person whose primary area of responsibility the play is in.
Sometimes hard to do when it also states that both officials are on ball when the ball is in the paint.
As far as the block/charge it states "When in doubt it is a charge. Don't penalize good defense!!"