Blarge--does it exist?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

JR, you are confusing iref4him with IREF4U.

You're right. I did. That was stupid and wrong. I went back and deleted my posts, and I apologize to both parties.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're right. I did. That was stupid and wrong. I went back and deleted my posts, and I apologize to both parties.

...and I was just about to start a thread entitled "Is it possible for JR to be stupid and wrong?"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

...and I was just about to start a thread entitled "Is it possible for JR to be stupid and wrong?"

Of course. It's called multi-tasking. Apparently I'm quite adept at it.

[Kostja]

Interesting discussion.

Under FIBA rules there is no such thing as a blarge. So, what do we do if something like that happens? First of all we always make a decision for one foul, block or charge.

Now for mechanics, to avoid one partner signalling a block while the other is already punching in the new direction for a charge, we teach young referees, not to point at the defender or give the block signal when you have a block on a very close call. Just raise your fist, and make eye contact with your partner if you have a double whistle. If he got a charge, go with the charge. Since it is very common to raise your fist first and then punch for the charge, in a best case scenario nobody will even notice that there was a disagreement in the first place.

If both partners have already given their signals, we will get together and decide on one foul. The guy who changes his call will signal the final decision to avoid the impression that he has been overruled. For the problem of two guys who both can't give in and take back their call, they won't be around for long ....

[Junker]

Do we need to start another forum category just on the "blarge". We've hashed this over for a long time, every year. We all know that if good mechanics are followed, you won't end up with this situation. We also know that on occasion it's going to happen. I haven't had it in a game yet, but I know better than to say it will never happen. Most of us would get together and go with whichever call came from the primary. If you can't come to agreement, call them both. It's really not all that complicated.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not in agreement here. While I think it's not common, I think the rules allow for a block/charge just as they allow for a double foul away from the ball. It's very possible for two players to foul each other simultaneously; even if one has the ball.

(a) A1 dribbling down the court holding up an "arm bar" and pushing B1 just as B1 is reaching and hacking the dribbling arm. What do you call?

(b) Or A1 extending his arm to push B1 who is moving but not in LGP; both players fall. What do you call?

Case (b) is easy: the contact is caused by A1. It is a foul for the defender causing a contact without having LGP. It is not required to have LGP at all times: the defender who has LGP at the moment of the contact doesn't have responsibility for it; the rules don't say that a defender not in LGP is responsible for any contact.

In case (a) the defender must have very long arms, if I picture correctly the situation. Penalize the first contact.

The rules don't prohibit a "blarge" call, just because they can happen; it's the fault of the officials, though. Blarges shouldn't happen if they make a good team job.

In FIBA we are required to raise the fist before giving the team control foul signal. This helps to avoid blarge calls, because it gives time to realize there has been a double whistle; the official with the play in their primary will decide if it is a charge or a block. Or maybe the officials will confer, if one of them has something that the other one could not see. Blarge calls happen, in fact, when one of the official makes immediately the team control foul signal.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Kostja

Interesting discussion.

Under FIBA rules there is no such thing as a blarge. So, what do we do if something like that happens? First of all we always make a decision for one foul, block or charge.

I have to contradict you: one thing is the mechanics to be used in "double whistle" cases, another thing are the rules. If one official calls "block" and the other one calls "charge", both fouls should be charged: it is too late to ignore one of the calls.

47.7 Each official has the power to make decisions within the limits of his duties, but has no authority to disregard or question decisions made by the other official(s).

As I have written in another message, it is surely possible that the officials confer in order to make a decision. But they have to sell it very well: for example supplying information that something big has happened that one of the officials couldn't see. In a simple charge/block situation with a blarge call, the officials have to live with their error and charge both fouls.

Remember to always raise your fist on a foul, you'll never be in troubles about blarges.

Ciao

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Junker

Do we need to start another forum category just on the "blarge". We've hashed this over for a long time, every year. We all know that if good mechanics are followed, you won't end up with this situation. We also know that on occasion it's going to happen. I haven't had it in a game yet, but I know better than to say it will never happen. Most of us would get together and go with whichever call came from the primary. If you can't come to agreement, call them both. It's really not all that complicated.

It also isn't the point of this thread either, Junker. The point isn't that you should never have a blarge or how to avoid a blarge. The point is that if a blarge actually does happen, do you then follow the direction of the applicable rule book, be it NFHS, NCAA Mens or NCAA Womens, which is what you said above that you personally would have done? Or would you follow your own view of how the play should be handled? JoeAdvantage, IRef4Him and MTD Sr. are all basically saying that they would apply the NCAA Womens ruling to all NFHS and NCAA Mens situations, even though both of those ruleset rulings are completely different. Iow, it's the same as applying a FIBA rule to something that happened in a D1 Mens Final Four game, simply because you like the FIBA rule better.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I mis-read any of those parties' posts, but I think that I interpreted them correctly.

My original question was just simply wondering how everyone feels about JoeAdvantage's (et al) position that the procedure outlined in the cited NFHS case book play should not be followed after a blarge has occurred.

Note that I still haven't given my personal opinion....yet.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Junker

Most of us would get together and go with whichever call came from the primary. If you can't come to agreement, call them both. It's really not all that complicated.

But Junker, this is proper if one or neither of the officials give a preliminary, but if BOTH officials give conflicting preliminaries, then by rule we are supposed to have a double foul. And a lot of coaches know this.

I would rather piss off both coaches by enforcing the letter of the rulebook as opposed to pissing off one coach who can then go back to our assignor, cite the case book, and say we didn't enforce a rule properly.

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I understand his views and believe that logically he has a point. However, once both officials signal, the proper rules must be followed. In that regard both Joe and Rich are totally wrong. What they advocate doing is directly contrary to this year's POE #5. It was written for people who have just those views.

What he said. I don't like how it's written but if it happens I have to follow the caseplay.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But Junker, this is proper if one or neither of the officials give a preliminary, but if BOTH officials give conflicting preliminaries, then by rule we are supposed to have a double foul. And a lot of coaches know this.

I would rather piss off both coaches by enforcing the letter of the rulebook as opposed to pissing off one coach who can then go back to our assignor, cite the case book, and say we didn't enforce a rule properly.

I agree, if no prelims are used, then everyone is safe. But is so hard!!!!!!!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Note that I still haven't given my personal opinion....yet.

And all of us await with baited breath. (Of which I never understood that term, because I really don't like the taste of worms...)

By rule, both a block and a charge/player control foul really can't happen at the same time. So, "blarge" is simply a term used to describe what happens when two officials have different calls on the same play, not the play itself. With proper mechanics, blarges should never happen. I have even been involved with a call where it happened in my primary, I came out immediately with the block call, and didn't know until later my partner was starting to come out with the charge, saw me give my signal, and dropped his. Of course the coach saw my partner start to give his signal, and asked why he gave it up. He told the coach he wasn't really signalling, he was just fixing his hair. Good way to wiggle out of it, but if he hadn't seen me, then we would've had to do what the book says: call both fouls and go to POI. I don't like that, and we would also try to do as much as possible to avoid that situation, but if it happens, it's pretty clear how the Fed. wants it handled.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

but if it happens, it's pretty clear how the Fed. wants it handled.

For those who didn't want to read the novel, the Coles Notes version is above.

Or....shut (mostly) up.

Btw, the Cubbies just signed Cliff Floyd. Which brings up the natural follow-up question...."Is a MLB team allowed to have two DL's?"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

And all of us await with baited breath. (Of which I never understood that term, because I really don't like the taste of worms...)

I agree, I don't understand the term "baited breath." I do, however, understand the similar-sounding phrase "bated breath."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

For those who didn't want to read the novel, the Coles Notes version is above.

Or....shut (mostly) up.

Btw, the Cubbies just signed Cliff Floyd. Which brings up the natural follow-up question...."Is a MLB team allowed to have two DL's?"

Hey, I haven't been around much lately, so I've got a lot of pent-up posting in me.

So, shut (all the way) up.

I'm not sure how that works, if you have two DH's, do you just go with the one and ignore the other, or do you report both?