Block/charge

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by phansen

Defender is set and stationary when the offensive player dribbling the ball runs into the defender. Offensive player bounces off the defender and goes to the ground, while the defender is still standing in the same position. I call a charge. Coach gets upset and asks how his player can be on the ground and still get a charge while the defender is still standing. I agree it was unusual, but didn't have an answer to the question and still believe I made the correct call. Anybody have a similar situation and how have you handled it?

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

[Junker]

Without seeing it, I might have passed. Nobody gained an advantage.

[CoachP]

I do not have a problem with charging here. Why penalize the defense because B1 is 6-10 and weighs 260 while A1 is 5-8 and goes 165?
If it's the other way around it'd be called.....As the defenses coach, I'd say chalk up the foul and get me to the bonus quicker!

4-7-2
Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent's torso.

Doesn't say the opponent has to be displaced.

OP didn't mention where the ball went, but...if A1 falls to the ground while holding the ball, a travel could have been called if the charging was passed on, correct?

[Raymond]

As described I'm thinking a "no call" would suffice. If A1 fell to the ground with the ball it's a travel, if A1 lost the ball, B1 probably has a very good chance of recovering the ball.

[rainmaker]

I agree that a no-call could be good here, but I don't have a problem with calling the charge especially if the whistle cracked as the contact was made. And depending on the level. If you're a JV ref, working on getting the call right, and you were seeing the defender in position, the the dribbler deliberately running through, it was a great call. Your next development step will be to start working on holding the whistle, and allowing the play to develop, thus seeing the opportunity for a good no-call. Or possibly a travel, if the dribbler went down to the floor with theb all.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

...If you're a JV ref, working on getting the call right, and you were seeing the defender in position, the the dribbler deliberately running through, it was a great call. Your next development step will be to start working on holding the whistle, and allowing the play to develop, thus seeing the opportunity for a good no-call. Or possibly a travel, if the dribbler went down to the floor with theb all.

Excellent point Juulie!!! You're kewl

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

Not much different than the offensive player stepping on a defender's foot and going down really. If the foot isn't stuck out, fuggedaboutit.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with the coach. The contact didn't prevent normal defensive maneuvers by the defender, so it was just incidental contact.

Furthermore, not only is it not a foul, but if the dribbler held onto the ball while falling to the court, the dribbler has committed a traveling violation.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Furthermore, not only is it not a foul, but if the dribbler held onto the ball while falling to the court, the dribbler has committed a traveling violation.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the dribbler keeps the ball and falls with it, you might get away with a travel.

I beat you to that one by about 13 hours, Mark!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I beat you to that one by about 13 hours, Mark!

Juulie:

I am sorry, I didn't see your post, I was just skimming through them.

MTD, Sr.

[IUgrad92]

Mark,

So when do you apply rule Rule 4-45-5? Only when the defender hits the ground or gets hurt from the contact by the offensive player?

[Adam]

So, when B1 reaches in and slaps A1's arm while A1 drives by him for a layup, are you going to call the slap and stop the layup?
If A1 bumps B1 from behind on a rebound but B1 gets the ball without being affected, are you going to call the push?

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, when B1 reaches in and slaps A1's arm while A1 drives by him for a layup, are you going to call the slap and stop the layup?
Depends on the severity. If it is a slap that everyone and their brother can hear, then yep I call it and stop the layup. To me, the foul count, which is determining potential 1 and 1 or double bonus and for how much of the game a team has that benefit, has just as much effect (and maybe more) on the game as that layup.
If A1 bumps B1 from behind on a rebound but B1 gets the ball without being affected, are you going to call the push?
Again, depends on the severity. Slight bump, rebounder maintains control, then no. Hard bump, or where player is coming in out of control, but rebounder maintains control, then yep, I whistle that one.

Again, two good examples of where if you let all of this go as long as the offended player is 'not affected', is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play, instead of thinking twice on reaching, etc. Can't remember every calling more than 2 fouls on one player for a rebounding foul in one game. Usually after the first, and definitely after the second, they are very aware of the other players around them in a rebounding situation and make better decisions.

[deecee]

is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play

thats called hustle

what we are trying to explain is advantage/disadvantage -- 2 very key concepts in officiating

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Again, two good examples of where if you let all of this go as long as the offended player is 'not affected', is just giving a message to the defense that they might as well go for broke every play, instead of thinking twice on reaching, etc. Can't remember every calling more than 2 fouls on one player for a rebounding foul in one game. Usually after the first, and definitely after the second, they are very aware of the other players around them in a rebounding situation and make better decisions.

The fact is that the rules don't call it a foul without advantage or displacement of some sort. I'll ask the question this way, as it paraphrases your question to Mark.

When do you apply rule 4-27?

Originally Posted by Rule Book

Article 1: The mere fact that contact occurs does not constitute a foul....
Article 3: Similarly, contact which does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental.

It's not a foul without an illegal advantage, so you are unfairly penalizing A1 on this if you call him for a foul; and you are unfairly adding to Team A's foul count.