OOB vs. Held Ball

[CaliOne]

maybe move your body or your lean your head & shoulders slightly to quickly to get a look between players? I'm not saying I could have done any better, but I agree with DAnRef in that you know it had to be either a held ball or a foul, because B1 reached in and both players spun around.

[Camron Rust]

Even if you don't "see" everything, you can often deduce a lot from what you can see.

To call OOB, A loses the ball no matter what....perhaps unfairly. In calling the held ball, A may lose the ball or may not but they will at least end up with the arrow if they do lose the ball. I'm not suggesting you just call the held ball every time you can't see something, just stating what the ramifications are.

In this case, I think you've probably got a foul or a held ball based on the fact that A1's body was spun around in a way that, as described, could only be caused by B1 grabbing something. I don't think you can come up with a foul based on what was described. A1's hands were both on the ball when A1 came down. If B1's hands were on the ball when A1 came down, you've definitely got justification for a held ball. Even if B1's hands were not on the ball, the actions you did observe still suggest a held ball.


Furthermore, You can sometimes deduce a foul by B even if you can't see the contact by the physical response of A (not always, but sometimes). If B had been holding onto A's arm, you can tell by how the ball pops out and how A's arms move. For example, A1 bringing the ball up with both hands, B get's their arm in there but you can't see cleanly. A1's arms both continue up without the ball...could be clean, could be a foul. You don't have enough info to call anything. But, if A1 has one arm continue up but one arm stays down and the ball pops out awkwardly, I'm calling a foul....that only happens if B1 is hanging on the arm of A1. I don't have to see B1 hanging on A1's arm to know that it happened.

It doesn't sound like this is your case. It sounds like A1 continued to hold onto the ball with both arms. Not enough info to justify a foul.

[BktBallRef]

I don't see how you can GUESS a foul or a held ball.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I don't see how you can GUESS a foul or a held ball.

Are you referring to me? Note, I'm don't think it is guessing. I'm using information that I did see to deduce what has occurred. It is not necessary to see absolutely 100% of an event to know what happened.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is not necessary to see absolutely 100% of an event to know what happened.

Like a slap? You know whether it's a foul or not just by hearing it?

I'm with the "gotta see it" bunch. If the films show that I missed something, I'll hang my head in abject shame....and then forget about it.

[CaliOne]

I'm with Mr. Cameron Rust, because there is a lot you can tell from body movements. But none of us will never really know what we'd call because we didn't see it. Get us the tape and post the clip on here! Is that even possible? Just wondering for fun.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Like a slap? You know whether it's a foul or not just by hearing it?

I'm with the "gotta see it" bunch. If the films show that I missed something, I'll hang my head in abject shame....and then forget about it.

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

If you see a defender's swat in the direction of the dribbler's right arm (and you're on the dribbler's left), hear the distinct sound of skin-on-skin (or maybe not) and the angles of the arm are such that it couldn't be on the hand that is on the ball, the part of the arm that you can see moves unnaturally, as if it were hit, but you can't see the point of possible contact, and the dribbler mis-dribbles the ball such that they lose it, what else could it be?

I'm not suggesting you merely guess, just use a little of the brainpower that you clearly have to add 1+1 and get 2 rather seeing 1+1 and leaving with 0, just beacause you didn't see the 2 on paper.

[SamIAm]

I am with you on this one Cameron. I suspect everyone else is as well they just are not at the same threshhold. ie. A1 receives pass in front of you, then starts walking across the court with ball up against his chest directly away from you where you can't see the ball. Most everyone here would call travelling even though they can't see a player possessing the ball and moving his pivot foot. But we all know what has occurred.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

If you see a defender's swat in the direction of the dribbler's right arm (and you're on the dribbler's left), hear the distinct sound of skin-on-skin (or maybe not) and the angles of the arm are such that it couldn't be on the hand that is on the ball, the part of the arm that you can see moves unnaturally, as if it were hit, but you can't see the point of possible contact, and the dribbler mis-dribbles the ball such that they lose it, what else could it be?

I'm not suggesting you merely guess, just use a little of the brainpower that you clearly have to add 1+1 and get 2 rather seeing 1+1 and leaving with 0, just beacause you didn't see the 2 on paper.

Cool.

You guess. I'll only call something if I see it. We disagree philosophically.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

Coach: "How can you make that call? You were completely straight-lined and blocked out!"
Me: "I wasn't thrilled with my angle on that one either, Coach, but I smelled the held ball."
Coach: