OOB vs. Held Ball

[CaliOne]

I'm with Mr. Cameron Rust, because there is a lot you can tell from body movements. But none of us will never really know what we'd call because we didn't see it. Get us the tape and post the clip on here! Is that even possible? Just wondering for fun.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Like a slap? You know whether it's a foul or not just by hearing it?

I'm with the "gotta see it" bunch. If the films show that I missed something, I'll hang my head in abject shame....and then forget about it.

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

If you see a defender's swat in the direction of the dribbler's right arm (and you're on the dribbler's left), hear the distinct sound of skin-on-skin (or maybe not) and the angles of the arm are such that it couldn't be on the hand that is on the ball, the part of the arm that you can see moves unnaturally, as if it were hit, but you can't see the point of possible contact, and the dribbler mis-dribbles the ball such that they lose it, what else could it be?

I'm not suggesting you merely guess, just use a little of the brainpower that you clearly have to add 1+1 and get 2 rather seeing 1+1 and leaving with 0, just beacause you didn't see the 2 on paper.

[SamIAm]

I am with you on this one Cameron. I suspect everyone else is as well they just are not at the same threshhold. ie. A1 receives pass in front of you, then starts walking across the court with ball up against his chest directly away from you where you can't see the ball. Most everyone here would call travelling even though they can't see a player possessing the ball and moving his pivot foot. But we all know what has occurred.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Most everyone here would call travelling even though they can't see a player possessing the ball and moving his pivot foot.

I disagree with that statement completely. Competent officials who know the rules will NOT call a travel without being able to see the ball. It's the other kind that will.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

If you see a defender's swat in the direction of the dribbler's right arm (and you're on the dribbler's left), hear the distinct sound of skin-on-skin (or maybe not) and the angles of the arm are such that it couldn't be on the hand that is on the ball, the part of the arm that you can see moves unnaturally, as if it were hit, but you can't see the point of possible contact, and the dribbler mis-dribbles the ball such that they lose it, what else could it be?

I'm not suggesting you merely guess, just use a little of the brainpower that you clearly have to add 1+1 and get 2 rather seeing 1+1 and leaving with 0, just beacause you didn't see the 2 on paper.

Cool.

You guess. I'll only call something if I see it. We disagree philosophically.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool.

You guess. I'll only call something if I see it. We disagree philosophically.

Why are you calling it a guess? It is no such thing and I resent that characterization. I never guess. I use the information I do see/hear to determine what happened. If it is inconclusive or ambiguous, I don't make a call. It's called judgement.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I disagree with that statement completely. Competent officials who know the rules will NOT call a travel without being able to see the ball. It's the other kind that will.

As do I. While I could imagine a Globetrotter-esque play that would be an exception, I don't call a travel unless I know the player was holding the ball. If there is any possiblity that the ball was being muffed/fumbled/juggled/etc. I'm holding my whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As do I. While I could imagine a Globetrotter-esque play that would be an exception, I don't call a travel unless I know the player was holding the ball. If there is any possiblity that the ball was being muffed/fumbled/juggled/etc. I'm holding my whistle.

Which is exactly why I said a competent official that knows the rules wouldn't call it....

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We have several senses for a reason. We should use all of them....and know when we can use all of them.

Coach: "How can you make that call? You were completely straight-lined and blocked out!"
Me: "I wasn't thrilled with my angle on that one either, Coach, but I smelled the held ball."
Coach:

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Coach: "How can you make that call? You were completely straight-lined and blocked out!"
Me: "I wasn't thrilled with my angle on that one either, Coach, but I smelled the held ball."
Coach:

I was misquoted, I say. Misquoted!

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was misquoted, I say. Misquoted!

Was that you, Snaqs? I was going to try to actually cite you, but I got lazy. My apologies. Hear ye, hear ye. May it now be know heretofore on the Forum that the first portion of my previous post on this thread was originally espoused by the great Snaqwells.

(I really do like that line. That's why it stuck in my head.)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I am with you on this one Cameron. I suspect everyone else is as well they just are not at the same threshhold. ie. A1 receives pass in front of you, then starts walking across the court with ball up against his chest directly away from you where you can't see the ball. Most everyone here would call travelling even though they can't see a player possessing the ball and moving his pivot foot. But we all know what has occurred.

Originally Posted by Jurassic

I disagree with that statement completely. Competent officials who know the rules will NOT call a travel without being able to see the ball. It's the other kind that will.

I had this happen to me in GV district play-off game last year (3-man). I (in slot) didn't see the ball but the girl ran 3 steps without dribbling as soon as she caught the ball so I called a travel (play was in my primary, going away from me, of course). We go in to locker room at halftime and I bring up the play saying I couldn't believe the girl just started running with the ball, and my partner who was in the lead says "Oh, she didn't walk, the defender had the ball trapped against her chest." Of course, I'm like "WTF!!!, why didn't you come to me with that information?"

Never did get a clear answer to that question but taught me a lesson about calling something I don't see.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Never did get a clear answer to that question but taught me a lesson about calling something I don't see.

I made the same mistake and learned the same lesson many, many years ago. Never forgot it.