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Old Wed Oct 17, 2001, 07:31pm
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Question #58 is generating quite a bit of discussion in another forum and I am the only one who is defending the answer on the IAABO answer key.

While A-1 is dribbling, A-2 fouls B-2 and B-3 fouls A-3 simultaneously. Both team are in the bonus. Official awards both teams A one and one and resumes play wiht the alternating possession procedure. Is the official correct.

The answer key say YES, with following NFHS Rules Book citations:

R4-S19-A8: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

R6-S3-A3g: In all jump-ball situations toher than the start of the game and each extra period, an alternating-possession throw-in shall result when: Opponents commit simultaneous personal or technical fouls.

I added the following NFHS Rules Book citations:

R4-S19-A1: A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent while the ball is live, which hinders an opponent from performing a normal defensive and offensive movements. A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead.

R4-S19-A2: A common foul is a personal foul which is neither flagrant nor intentional nor committed against a player trying or tapping for a field goal nor a part of a double or multiple foul.

R4-S19-A7a: A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commit personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time.

R8-S7: Penalties for fouls are administered in the order in which the fouls occured.

Summary of Penalties for All Fouls: The offended player or team is awarded the following:
3. Bonus free throw:
a. For the seventh, eigth and ninth tream foul each
half, if the first free throw is succesful.
b. Beginning with the 10th team foul each half
whether or not the first free throw is succesful.


I would like to entertain comments.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2001, 08:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Question #58 is generating quite a bit of discussion in another forum and I am the only one who is defending the answer on the IAABO answer key.
...

I would like to entertain comments.
No you're not. I already posted that I agree with you,
although I believe your argument is weakly worded. That's
my comment, consider yourself entertained. Here are 2 links
to the discussion, it gets rather thick but hang in there.

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/19476.html

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww...ges/19346.html
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2001, 08:34pm
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Simultaneous fouls, go to the arrow. 6-3-3g

This is not a FDF as the fouls occur simultaneously, not one after the other. This is a poor IAABO interpretation of an NF rule.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2001, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef


And that's all I have to say about that.
HA! I bet you not!
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 11:07am
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Dan, I agree with you that my response was somewhat poorly worded; I often tell people that because I am an engineer mathematics in my first language and English is my second language. Having said that, there was a later post that more clearly explained my position and is the position that the NFHS and NCAA takes and here it is:

"That is, if A1 fouls B1 at 10:00, and B2 fouls A2 also at 10:00, the time on the B2 foul is "before the clock started following the [A1 foul]". (Obviously, I'm ignoring the situation where the clock starts for a fraction of a second, but it isn't registered onthe display.) It soesn't matter whether the fouls occurred simultaneously or sequentially -- the definition still applies." by Bob Jenkins


BktBallRef, IAABO does not "interpret" the rules as an IAABO interpretation. The fact the fouls are by both teams are a critical factor in them being part of a false double foul. When both teams commit fouls before the clock starts after the first foul that makes the entire fouls sequence (boy, how I hated to use that word) a false double foul. R6-S3-A3g tells us who we will but the ball into play after all of the other required penalties are imposed.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 12:45pm
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Ok...I have read everything on the other board about this topic, and am afraid I have to side with Mr. DeNucci, Sr...there is no provision in the NFHS rules for a "simultaneous" personal foul, so the only rule applicable to this situation would be the false double foul rule - in theory...we can't just decide to make up our own interpretation here and call them simultaneous fouls when those don't "exist" in the rule book...

DJ
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 01:33pm
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Question

If all you guys who support that answer are correct, then riddle me this, Batman: what the heck is NF 4-19-7 referring to when it describes a double foul and indicates there are no free throws?

In the original post, the fouls occurred at the same time, not one, then the other before the clock started.

In your thinking, there is no such thing as a "double foul", only "false double fouls". Certainly, I think there is a difference and I also think I know what the difference is because I have called both.

Now, I will agree there is no such thing as a "multiple foul" - at least never in my games

If a partner ever would call one of those, I would override him and then chump-slap him into the next county.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 02:03pm
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Double foul doesn't fit the original situation either, because it has to be two players fouling each other...the original situation had A2 fouling B2 and at the same time B3 fouling A3...that surely aresn't no double foul...and again, there is no provision for simultaneous personal fouls...that wasn't too hard of a riddle...

DJ
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 03:01pm
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Here's my thinking on this mess...

1. It's not a double foul because it's not the same 2
players fouling each other.
2. It might be a false double foul because one of the
elements of a double foul is missing, meaning both teams
shoot FT's.
3. Simultaneous foul is interesting but there's not
enough support in the book to wave off the FT's. NCAA
4.26.15 defines a simultaneous foul as exactly what happens
in this play. NCAA 6.3.1f tells us we use the AP when
simultaneous fouls occur. Nothing anywhere in the NCAA book
about NOT shooting free throws on simultaneous fouls.
(I'm quoting the NCAA book because I have an electronic
copy of it making the search easier. I believe it gives
us at least as much, maybe even more guidance than the NF
book.)

I am vey willing to be shown how I'm wrong on any of these
(except #4), so if there's a hole here please point it out.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 03:14pm
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Cool

Arrrgh! I hate to be wrong. I missed the part about the fouls not being by the same players. I guess that's why I should wear my glasses when I read these things.

Actually, I was having a "senior moment".

My track record isn't too bad, however. I've only been wrong three times in my life and I've been married twice. You do the math.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 03:53pm
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6.3.3g does mention simultaneous personal fouls so the answer is yes. We go to the AP arrow after the free throws because this is also false multiple. So the IAABO answer is correct.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 05:20pm
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NCAA simultaneous personal foul administration

. Nothing anywhere in the NCAA book
about NOT shooting free throws on simultaneous fouls.

Dan_ref..

For a simultaneous personal foul under NCAA rules, each foul carries its own penalty, and then the alternating possession arrow is used for the resumption of play. Therefore, it is actually possible for both teams to shoot bonus free throws in this situation.

I wish that I could site the page in the rule book for you, but I do not have it with me. I am getting this information from a Foul/Penalty chart which my supervisor gave me last week.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 05:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Double foul doesn't fit the original situation either, because it has to be two players fouling each other...the original situation had A2 fouling B2 and at the same time B3 fouling A3...that surely aresn't no double foul...and again, there is no provision for simultaneous personal fouls...that wasn't too hard of a riddle...

DJ
"aresn't"?

Chuck
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 07:37pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Double foul doesn't fit the original situation either, because it has to be two players fouling each other...the original situation had A2 fouling B2 and at the same time B3 fouling A3...that surely aresn't no double foul...and again, there is no provision for simultaneous personal fouls...that wasn't too hard of a riddle...

DJ
"aresn't"?

Chuck
"Aresn't" is a metric term. Rocky is in Vancouver, WA. Sometimes he thinks he's in Vancouver, BC.
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Old Thu Oct 18, 2001, 08:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by rockyroad
Ok...I have read everything on the other board about this topic, and am afraid I have to side with Mr. DeNucci, Sr...there is no provision in the NFHS rules for a "simultaneous" personal foul, so the only rule applicable to this situation would be the false double foul rule - in theory...we can't just decide to make up our own interpretation here and call them simultaneous fouls when those don't "exist" in the rule book...
Okay Dan, you were right, I couldn't resist.

DJ, simulataneous fouls do most certainly exist. See 6-3-3g. I can't tell you why it's not listed in the definitions but it is listed in rule 6.

Double fouls and double technical fouls are handled the same way. Why would simulataneous personal fouls and simultaneous technical fouls be handled differently? Answer, they shouldn't. When simultaneous fouls occur, it becomes an AP situation. When simultaneous technical fouls occur, it becomes an AP situation. In neither case do you shoot FTs.

Tim, you said, "this is also false multiple." I'm sure you wrote that mistakenly, since there's a foul on each team, not two fouls on the same team.

Mark D., this is most certainly an IAABO interpretation of the play. And it is not a FDF. Why? As I've been trying to tell you for a week that these fouls occur simultaneously, not one after the other, as in a FDF.

BigWhistle, it really doesn't matter what the NCAA says as this is an NF sitch.

Finally, this is fun! Glad to see things are starting to heat up!
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