What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

Tom, he didn't say it was a bad call, he's just pointing out that it LOOKS better if both T's don't come from the same official. Can you really argue with that? I know it's early, but maybe try the decaf.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by firedoc

The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign and sais that I had heard enough. A few minutes later he again started to complain and took a few steps onto the court. Whack! As I stepped towards the table to report the T he said (loud enough that I couldn't ignore it) "you suck." Whack!. He then followed me to the table saying "go ahead, call another one on me." By that time my partner was there to help me out and he issued the third T.

A "stop sign" that wasn't needed and what seems like a personal attack from a coach. I would have been there to administer the free-throws, but you would have first crack at all of these technical fouls. Situations where a partner should give a second (or third) technical should be when the possibility exists that an official has it in for a coach. I mean it could look like an official has it in for a coach. If a coach verbally attacks one official and doesn't back off after the first technical, what is wrong with an official giving both (or three ) technical fouls?
Like JR just said, the first technical is a warning so I would probably do without the almighty, must happen, seems to be required, robotic, mechanic.........stop sign. Just my opinion.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Tom, he didn't say it was a bad call, he's just pointing out that it LOOKS better if both T's don't come from the same official. Can you really argue with that? I know it's early, but maybe try the decaf.

If a 13 year old has the nerve to act up twice, I sure as H E double L have the nerve to slide two technicals his/her way. Nothing personal, I just don't go there with kids this age. I have never failed to find 10 players who want to play.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

...During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.

Why would you ignore him?

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Without turning around, I gave him a VERY HIGH stop sign (so the video would catch it) and said, "OK coach I've had enough." He responded with "So have I". TWEET WHACK!

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

I often comment on threads like this and I don't want to make it seem like I give out technicals for any and everything. However, from many camps, assigners, conferences and officials - literally from coast to coast - I have learned (still learning) similar philosophies concerning technical fouls. Coaches don't care about a robotic stop sign you throw in their face. In some cases, it just pisses them off more. They care about communication. It is like an emotional roller coaster and normal life - we aren't always happy, sad or pissed off. I think coaches appreciate it if they know they can talk to an official in an adult manner and they also appreciate knowing that an official will go to the edge and do anything at any time (technical foul). From the first basket of the season to the last second of the championship game, I think they want to know that they can talk to you and know you will give them what they earn.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

Yes, I am. Why should I consider whether the participants are 13 or 31? IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners. If the come from one, the participant, coaches, parents (usually in the 13 yo, not always though ), fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid. If it comes from both partners, it's more likely that even a 13 yo kid will come away from the game realizing that he was the problem, not the ref, singular.

I agree with Scrappy: DE CAF

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Yes, I am. Why should I consider whether the participants are 13 or 31? IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners. If the come from one, the participant, coaches, parents (usually in the 13 yo, not always though ), fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid. If it comes from both partners, it's more likely that even a 13 yo kid will come away from the game realizing that he was the problem, not the ref, singular.

I agree with Scrappy: DE CAF

Do you know how many toxins are in coffee?

The bigger picture is a kid does something and gets two technicals on Tuesday. He does the same thing on Thursday and gets two technicals. On next Saturday he does the same things and gets two technicals. See where I'm going with this? I don't care if one arbitrary kid's parents think I have it in for little Johnny. Do you count how many fouls you call on little Johnny to make sure they are spread out evenly and his parents don't think you had something against him? What if little Johnny travels four times in a game? Does that mean you call two and your partner calls two?

I had a bagel with cream cheese, an apple (it was too soft) and I have a big bottle of water. No decaf needed!

I thought his "name" was Scrapper, not Scrappy!

[coach mb]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

This is up to the assigner, but as an official I'm not running away. It is just a technical foul or two.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The bigger picture is a kid does something and gets two technicals on Tuesday. He does the same thing on Thursday and gets two technicals. On next Saturday he does the same things and gets two technicals. See where I'm going with this? I don't care if one arbitrary kid's parents think I have it in for little Johnny. Do you count how many fouls you call on little Johnny to make sure they are spread out evenly and his parents don't think you had something against him? What if little Johnny travels four times in a game? Does that mean you call two and your partner calls two?

Finally someone else gets the point - it is all on little Johnny! - All the official did was react to Johnny's actions at that moment in time.

the thing with the two differnt T's called by different officials is something I agree with - but that is more for upper level games and issues with the crew looking good.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

You are mis-interpreting the situation. Coaches tend to learn what type of official you are and if you are the type to take a lot of grief, they will continue to give it to you, more and more each time as they try and find your limit, and if they never find it. They are going to continue to brutalize you. Coaches test your boundaries as well as kids. Understand the difference.

If I whack a coach for constant complaining, I am sending the message don't do it anymore in none of my games. The next time I have this coach he will remember me and not push it with me. This is what I want. They can also spread the word to all of there other friends that I don't take no sh!t. I think the thing you want to be aware of is the negative things that can ruin your game. Constant complaining coaches is one of those things that can make it a difficult night to work, even if nothing bad or controversial happens in the game. They are just bending your ear in a way that makes your job more stressful, and, like you've already stated, it causes the players to play worse, too. I'd say, we don't need to be more stressed than we already are. Look for these negative things that can make your games bad. Don't be afraid to penalize. Remember, good coaches are all about coaching there players.

I whacked a 10th grade coach yesterday without warning for constant complaining and informed him he must remain seated afterwards. I love that HS rule. The rest of this game and the next game, no more complaints from either coach, either bench. The way I like it. Now I can focus on calling the game, being consistent on both ends, etc....

[Ignats75]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
...During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.


Why would you ignore him?

Because thats what we always try to do with the whiners. As far as your rant about communication is concerned, I don't thinnk anyone here would dispute what you said. I will gladly communicate with any coach that demonstrates a desire to have some communication with me. Whining does not constute a willingness to do that. Yet having been a coach, I empathize with the frustration and pressure they feel, so I tend to ignore the whining if it doesn't interefere with my performance or inflame the crowd. When it does, (s)he gets the stop sign. I don't care, at that point, if they like the stop sign or not, because the next thing that happens after a stop sign is a T. By the time a stop sign is given, we're done communicating anyway.

You can say I'm too tolerant. Thats fine, and you are intitled to your opinion. But that tolerance is part of my personality and style and while I am not afraid to whack any coach that warrants it, I don't have a hair trigger either.

[Junker]

I gotta say, like most other officials, my tolerance is very low for unsporting behavior in lower level games. I would have no problem calling both T's in a JH game. The way I look at it is, yes, winning is important, but lower level basketball is where kids learn how to play and act when they get to the varsity level. Would you rather the kid get ran from a middle school game and learn his lesson, or keep acting inappropriately until he finally gets run in a varsity game? I'm not saying this is how every official feels on the subject, but this is my personal view of the situation. From the OP, I certainly would have called the first T and without being there I can't comment on the second.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

the thing with the two differnt T's called by different officials is something I agree with

Then you don't get what I'm saying either. This is a dynamic game with an infinite number of personalities and moods. To think it wrong that one official give two technical fouls on a single player or coach is a pipe dream. In other words (again) there are absolutely no absolutes. To go into a game thinking:

1. Coach or player acts up
2. After #1 is repeated I give stop sign (if #1 is done by coach if not go to #3)
3. If #1 is repeated after #2 then I give technical foul
4. If #1 is repeated after #1 and #2 a partner should give additional technical foul

Sounds rather boring, methodical and robotic to me. Plus, that isn't the way things happen in this game. If all partner practice good game awareness, sometimes things will go this way and sometimes they won't.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Then you don't get what I'm saying either. This is a dynamic game with an infinite number of personalities and moods. To think it wrong that one official give two technical fouls on a single player or coach is a pipe dream. In other words (again) there are absolutely no absolutes. To go into a game thinking:

1. Coach or player acts up
2. After #1 is repeated I give stop sign (if #1 is done by coach if not go to #3)
3. If #1 is repeated after #2 then I give technical foul
4. If #1 is repeated after #1 and #2 a partner should give additional technical foul

Sounds rather boring, methodical and robotic to me. Plus, that isn't the way things happen in this game. If all partner practice good game awareness, sometimes things will go this way and sometimes they won't.

I agree with this. You can't put absolutes on what we do. Sometimes you have no choice but to call the T's yourself. I had a JV opener before a varsity game I posted about a couple of weeks ago. I had to call 2 easy ones on the home team in the opener and then I gave the varsity coach way too much leash becuase I didn't want to give the impression that I was only out there to throw the T. I won't make that mistake again. I should have ran the jerk. If the unsporting act is there, take care of business.

[BktBallRef]

What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

It would take him raising his hands over his head and complaining and then continuing to complain after the first T.