What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid.

The next time that I worry about what the fans think will be the first time.

You don't ignore unsporting behavior. You don't turn your back at unsporting behavior. You take care of bidness.

That "T's coming from two different officials" philosophy is meant for certain situations only imo. It sureasheck isn't meant for a ballplayer/coach that simply refuses to stop yapping, especially after having received a "T" already for doing so.

[Zoochy]

While reading this thread. The song playing on the radio had the lyrics..
"Nay nay nay nay... nay nay nay nay... hey hey... goodbye..... "
I guess that sums it up.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The next time that I worry about what the fans think will be the first time.

You don't ignore unsporting behavior. You don't turn your back at unsporting behavior. You take care of bidness.

That "T's coming from two different officials" philosophy is meant for certain situations only imo. It sureasheck isn't meant for a ballplayer/coach that simply refuses to stop yapping, especially after having received a "T" already for doing so.

Who said anything about ignoring unsporting behavior? All I said was

Originally Posted by Lil 'ol Me

I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

and

Originally Posted by Me Again

IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners.

I never said don't give the kid the second T. Nor have I said to turn your back on unsporting behavior.

[OHBBREF]

JR nice rant - I see your point - if the actions are immediate bang, bang, bang, then yes it should be foul - Whack - Whack - I have no problem there -
If you call the foul and the player rants WHACK him no big deal - but to walk away is to give the player the oportunity not to get whacked again - if they want it they surely will get it! from you or your partners.It is not a test of your manhood. You have taken care of business already - it is time for your partners to step up and take care of business too! If you have to go back and get him do so - then chew your partners out in the locker room for not having your back after the game.
How do you address the handling of T's in your pre-game?
in ours we don ot say Whack'em and stand there waiting to give the next one -
We walk away to report and a partner moves in, that is where the second one usually comes from!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

JR nice rant - I see your point - if the actions are immediate bang, bang, bang, then yes it should be foul - Whack - Whack - I have no problem there -
If you call the foul and the player rants WHACK him no big deal - but to walk away is to give the player the oportunity not to get whacked again - if they want it they surely will get it! from you or your partners.It is not a test of your manhood. You have taken care of business already - it is time for your partners to step up and take care of business too! If you have to go back and get him do so - then chew your partners out in the locker room for not having your back after the game.
How do you address the handling of T's in your pre-game?
in ours we don ot say Whack'em and stand there waiting to give the next one -
We walk away to report and a partner moves in, that is where the second one usually comes from!

Whichever way the wind blows, huh?

Similar to what JR said, if you want to stand out to an assigner or at a camp, have the intestinal fortitude to do what is right. It might be two technicals or one technical and the door. I put the theory or two officials needing to give two technicals in the same bag of BS with constantly validating watching the ball all over the floor. "BOO, BOO"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.

Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

He goes every time, Coach, every time.

The first "T" is his warning. If he wants to continue to yap, then he's throwing himself out - the official isn't. If the coach wanted to control him, then the coach should have been there immediately after the first "T" was called, or taught him not to whine in the first place.

There is absolutely no reason at all to take that nonsense at that level imo. And there's also never any reason to second-guess an official after the fact because a coach hasn't taught his players when to keep their mouth shut and how to act in a sporting fashion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by coach mb

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

What stands out to me here is that the player has already earned a disqualification before either technical foul. So the referee is NOT throwing anyone out of the game here.

Now I usually allow some emotion from a player or coach on a disqualifying foul, but nothing unsporting and certainly nothing which shows up an official. It is natural for the kid to be upset or disappointed.

However, it seems that this youngster crossed that line and the official properly charged the technical foul. At this point the player still wasn't willing to control his behavior and go sit down nor does it sound like his adult coach stepped in and took control of him, thus the second technical foul.

You may or may not know that under NFHS rules it is perfectly permissible for an official to charge technical fouls to people who have already been DQ'd. If you really want to know even a third T (or more) could have been charged, if the situation warranted it.

I would have to call this an immature decision by a young player that really hurt his team. Hopefully, he will learn from this.

[firedoc]

A few years ago I was doing a JV game. The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign and sais that I had heard enough. A few minutes later he again started to complain and took a few steps onto the court. Whack! As I stepped towards the table to report the T he said (loud enough that I couldn't ignore it) "you suck." Whack!. He then followed me to the table saying "go ahead, call another one on me." By that time my partner was there to help me out and he issued the third T. It turned out that there was no assistant coach and the game was over.

The next morning I faxed in a report of the incident (required in my county for any ejection). 24 hours later I had a phone call from the AD apologizing to me and saying that he knew that this coach was not yet ready to be a varsity coach.

BTW, in my county (Long Island, NY) anyone ejected is suspended for 1 game. A second ejection in the same season and they are gone for the rest of the season.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by firedoc

A few years ago I was doing a JV game. The home team coach whined about every call and every no-call. In the third quarter I got tired of it and gave the coach the stop-sign....

He whined at every call, and you waited until the third quarter?

Just think, if the guys who had him before you hadn't put up with him, you wouldn't have had to either.

[OHBBREF]

NOt having been there it is hard to say exactly what I would hav edone personally however by looking at the way this is written I am going to have to saythat the player deserved it.
the player had just recieved his fifth foul from Ref A then made some demonstrative display about the call that was sufficient for Ref B to WHACK him the first time.
Ref B (at least he should have been) was a good 25 - 30 feet away and the actions he saw were sufficient to deserve a T any actions after that are just plain stupid on the part of both the coach and the player - the coach should have got him off the loor and the player should have shut the H2!! up, or quit dancing around the gym to get the second one.

I would have prefereded that 1 T came from each official but I don't seem to have a problem with it the way it sounds.

[OHBBREF]

Quit worrying about if it was the right thing to do to the kid - the kid did it to himself - address that behavior - Referees do not create behavior - they react to the behavior of others and impose penalties based on others actions.
Yet we always see people asking if the referee was right to do what they did - not was the player right to do what they did?
Should the kid have gotten two technicals? Apparently so because he got them - would 5 out of 10 officials have responded differently - probably - however at that precise moment in time that official who was entrusted with the responsibility to call that particular game determined that kid needed to recieve two technical fouls for his actions - you have to back your officials on this - it is a judgment call.
In the rules it specifically states that "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment" - that is all it takes to get your own personal technical foul, and as you have heard a lot of us have less tolerance at the lower level's than than the higher ones for this sort of behavior.

[Ignats75]

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago. Girls JV. Coach was a notorious whiner. Basically reffing from the bench. His team was lightyears better than the team they were playing, but due to his lack of focus on the game and instead having it on us, his team went in at halftime down 18 points. During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.

At the half, I told my partner that he is approaching the point of getting whacked. First play of the second half, I am the Trail near his bench. Ball is on the baseline at the far end of the court and there is a routine out of bounds that my partner give to the other team. He complained about the call.

Without turning around, I gave him a VERY HIGH stop sign (so the video would catch it) and said, "OK coach I've had enough." He responded with "So have I". TWEET WHACK!

Now having to sit down, shut up and coach his team, they came back and won in OT.

As an aside, usually, teams take on the personality of their coach. If he's a complainer, then his players will complain and lose focus. They don't usually react well to any adversity that occurs in their game.

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

...During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.

Why would you ignore him?

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Without turning around, I gave him a VERY HIGH stop sign (so the video would catch it) and said, "OK coach I've had enough." He responded with "So have I". TWEET WHACK!

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

I often comment on threads like this and I don't want to make it seem like I give out technicals for any and everything. However, from many camps, assigners, conferences and officials - literally from coast to coast - I have learned (still learning) similar philosophies concerning technical fouls. Coaches don't care about a robotic stop sign you throw in their face. In some cases, it just pisses them off more. They care about communication. It is like an emotional roller coaster and normal life - we aren't always happy, sad or pissed off. I think coaches appreciate it if they know they can talk to an official in an adult manner and they also appreciate knowing that an official will go to the edge and do anything at any time (technical foul). From the first basket of the season to the last second of the championship game, I think they want to know that they can talk to you and know you will give them what they earn.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

I tend to ignore coaches and not whack them. Some senior officials have told me I should whack them sooner, but most of my assignors (I work in 4 conferences) have indicated that they would prefer the way I do it, than become known as Mr. T.

You are mis-interpreting the situation. Coaches tend to learn what type of official you are and if you are the type to take a lot of grief, they will continue to give it to you, more and more each time as they try and find your limit, and if they never find it. They are going to continue to brutalize you. Coaches test your boundaries as well as kids. Understand the difference.

If I whack a coach for constant complaining, I am sending the message don't do it anymore in none of my games. The next time I have this coach he will remember me and not push it with me. This is what I want. They can also spread the word to all of there other friends that I don't take no sh!t. I think the thing you want to be aware of is the negative things that can ruin your game. Constant complaining coaches is one of those things that can make it a difficult night to work, even if nothing bad or controversial happens in the game. They are just bending your ear in a way that makes your job more stressful, and, like you've already stated, it causes the players to play worse, too. I'd say, we don't need to be more stressed than we already are. Look for these negative things that can make your games bad. Don't be afraid to penalize. Remember, good coaches are all about coaching there players.

I whacked a 10th grade coach yesterday without warning for constant complaining and informed him he must remain seated afterwards. I love that HS rule. The rest of this game and the next game, no more complaints from either coach, either bench. The way I like it. Now I can focus on calling the game, being consistent on both ends, etc....

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by firedoc

BTW, in my county (Long Island, NY) anyone ejected is suspended for 1 game. A second ejection in the same season and they are gone for the rest of the season.

Very interesting. Talk about a coach having to be good! I like this rule.