What would it take for a double T on a 13 year old boy?

[coach mb]

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

[Adam]

It depends on what was said, coach. Swearing isn't necessary, and if the player refused to be quiet after the first T; a second could be warranted. A lot of refs will give less latitude at this level to players' comments than they will at the varsity level.
By complaining about a call, players are forcing us to make a decision. By continuing to complain after receiving a technical foul, the player has demonstrated he just doesn't care.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

I have no idea what I would do, I was not there. At this level my tolerance level for BS from players is the shortest of all the levels I would work. Also I think a lot of other officials would do the same if they are used to working. And the term is not double T. A double T would be between two players basically against each other. If a kid is running their mouth after they are given a T, then it is too bad for them. They should they will learn the next time and shut up (maybe).

Peace

[blindzebra]

The younger they are the less tolerant I am...I figure it's the right time to learn what is expected and what isn't, and I feel that not giving that lesson only means other officials will pay for my not setting them straight.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by coach mb

I searched the forum for "technical" and found some interesting reading. Tolerance, warnings, sure ways to get one. But one thing is for sure, the majority of the officials would rather NOT give a T "if" it can be avoided.
Here's a situation that I was made aware of. I was not there. I'm the league director and received a call from the ref and coach of the boy getting the double T.
7th & 8th grade boys. Close game (a few points). Player gets his 5th foul (ref A making the call) and reacts by raising his hands and has some audible words (no swearing). Ref B hits him with the first T. Now here's where the stories differ. However, after talking to 4 people that were there, no one is saying anything worse happened ... just more mouth and yes, a second T from ref B.
Question, at this level, what would you do? Is a second T justified? After the first, would you signal the coach to control his player? Warn the boy that he's about to get a double and ejection? Or just T him again and hope he learns a lesson.

My initial reaction is that anybody who is offering an opinion would really have had to be there to say for sure what they might have done.

Is the second T justified? It's certainly possible. We don't know what he said, how he said it, whether his body language was confrontational or resigned, whether he was moving toward the officials or away. There are a number of factors.

Would I warn the kid he's headed for a second? Probably. Then again, if he's been all mouth and attitude all game, I might just unload him to be rid of him. In any case I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

Whether to involve the coach depends on several things. Has the coach been disdainful or hostile during the game? Had the officials tried to involve him previously? If so, how did that go? Was the coach attempting to get the kid off the floor, or was he sitting back watching to see what the refs would do about it?

Bottom line, lots of variables to consider. I'd have to be there to know what I would do.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

In any case I'd rather that my partner got him the second time if he needed it.

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

Tom, he didn't say it was a bad call, he's just pointing out that it LOOKS better if both T's don't come from the same official. Can you really argue with that? I know it's early, but maybe try the decaf.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Tom, he didn't say it was a bad call, he's just pointing out that it LOOKS better if both T's don't come from the same official. Can you really argue with that? I know it's early, but maybe try the decaf.

If a 13 year old has the nerve to act up twice, I sure as H E double L have the nerve to slide two technicals his/her way. Nothing personal, I just don't go there with kids this age. I have never failed to find 10 players who want to play.

[coach mb]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

This is up to the assigner, but as an official I'm not running away. It is just a technical foul or two.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by coach mb

Thanks to all for the feedback. I have the same thoughts, had to be there, stand by the official.

Another question. Official B issued T's (not a double T ), same official has the next game for this team. Player can't play, if you were official B, would you get someone else to cover it?

Absolutely not! If it's me, I'm working that game.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

In my humble opinion, this is where this thread takes a turn for the worst. This is a 13 year old and you are worrying about who gave him the two technical fouls? W O W !

Yes, I am. Why should I consider whether the participants are 13 or 31? IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners. If the come from one, the participant, coaches, parents (usually in the 13 yo, not always though ), fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid. If it comes from both partners, it's more likely that even a 13 yo kid will come away from the game realizing that he was the problem, not the ref, singular.

I agree with Scrappy: DE CAF

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Yes, I am. Why should I consider whether the participants are 13 or 31? IMHO it is usually better if multiple T's come from different partners. If the come from one, the participant, coaches, parents (usually in the 13 yo, not always though ), fans can leave with the feeling that the one ref had it in for the kid. If it comes from both partners, it's more likely that even a 13 yo kid will come away from the game realizing that he was the problem, not the ref, singular.

I agree with Scrappy: DE CAF

Do you know how many toxins are in coffee?

The bigger picture is a kid does something and gets two technicals on Tuesday. He does the same thing on Thursday and gets two technicals. On next Saturday he does the same things and gets two technicals. See where I'm going with this? I don't care if one arbitrary kid's parents think I have it in for little Johnny. Do you count how many fouls you call on little Johnny to make sure they are spread out evenly and his parents don't think you had something against him? What if little Johnny travels four times in a game? Does that mean you call two and your partner calls two?

I had a bagel with cream cheese, an apple (it was too soft) and I have a big bottle of water. No decaf needed!

I thought his "name" was Scrapper, not Scrappy!

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The bigger picture is a kid does something and gets two technicals on Tuesday. He does the same thing on Thursday and gets two technicals. On next Saturday he does the same things and gets two technicals. See where I'm going with this? I don't care if one arbitrary kid's parents think I have it in for little Johnny. Do you count how many fouls you call on little Johnny to make sure they are spread out evenly and his parents don't think you had something against him? What if little Johnny travels four times in a game? Does that mean you call two and your partner calls two?

Finally someone else gets the point - it is all on little Johnny! - All the official did was react to Johnny's actions at that moment in time.

the thing with the two differnt T's called by different officials is something I agree with - but that is more for upper level games and issues with the crew looking good.

[Ignats75]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignats75
...During our pregame, we basically said that we were just going to ignore him unless he directly showed us up to the crowd or got pesronally abusive to one of us.


Why would you ignore him?

Because thats what we always try to do with the whiners. As far as your rant about communication is concerned, I don't thinnk anyone here would dispute what you said. I will gladly communicate with any coach that demonstrates a desire to have some communication with me. Whining does not constute a willingness to do that. Yet having been a coach, I empathize with the frustration and pressure they feel, so I tend to ignore the whining if it doesn't interefere with my performance or inflame the crowd. When it does, (s)he gets the stop sign. I don't care, at that point, if they like the stop sign or not, because the next thing that happens after a stop sign is a T. By the time a stop sign is given, we're done communicating anyway.

You can say I'm too tolerant. Thats fine, and you are intitled to your opinion. But that tolerance is part of my personality and style and while I am not afraid to whack any coach that warrants it, I don't have a hair trigger either.