force out call ?

[Junker]

I'll fully admit I have used the "save a foul" technique on occasion when I know most people have no idea who the ball went out on. I also must admit that it caused me some trouble just a couple of weeks ago. We had a girl's double header and during the JV game I was L under the V basket. A V girl went to the hoop and got bumped by H defender. It should have been called, but H was clearly outmatched and we already had plenty of fouls on them. After the bump the ball went out of bounds and unfortunately I already made up my mind that I was going to "save a foul" and give the ball to V. As I hit my whistle and announce that it's V ball. What was bad and caused me problems was that V ended up holding the ball out of bounds on the play. Anyway, the whole place goes nuts, the coach was understandably upset. After V scores and we start down to the other end, the H coach follows me up the court gesturing and telling me how "horrible" that call was. Yes, I threw the T. Had he sat while complaining I would have let him go, but since he made a public circus out of it, I took care of him. Long story short, the "saving a foul" cost me some credibility at one school and I had to work my butt off in the V game to try to get it back. I'm throwing that one out of my bag of tricks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Jurassic doesn't understand what common sense officiating is, he backs every TINY thing he does and says by the rulebook and thinks it is ok and in fact it is, he can never be told he is completely and utterly wrong (like he does to those common sense officials on the forum day in and day out) if he uses the rulebook for everything.

Um, no. Jurassic thinks that officials shouldn't make up and apply their very own personal rules, mechanics and philosophies and try to disguise their doing so by labelling them "common sense". Jurassic also thinks that common sense really is officials who do know the rules deciding whether to apply those existing rules, mechanics and philosophies. Iow, Jurassic thinks that it might be a very good idea if officials try to learn the rules first before they decide how to apply them.

And....Jurassic thinks that it's truly sad that some officials just don't know or understand the difference.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

A3 being guarded by B3 near the division line runs backward like he is going for the long pass and then starts to run up toward the ball, B3 grabs him and I call an INTENTIONAL FOUL. By rule I am correct in doing so because it was a foul that kept the clock from running, but it was wrong in common sense officiating.

Sorry, but I disagree that this was the correct call by rule.

IMO, the wording in the rule should be read as, "...designed *only* to keep the clock from starting..."

As I read your description, B3 was making a "basketball play" and the common foul was the correct call.

[dave30]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Dave30,

Jurassic doesn't understand what common sense officiating is, he backs every TINY thing he does and says by the rulebook and thinks it is ok and in fact it is, he can never be told he is completely and utterly wrong (like he does to those common sense officials on the forum day in and day out) if he uses the rulebook for everything.

Here is a good story in which I did the right thing by rule but didn't employ common sense officiating like I should have and screwed a team over or so I thought and my crew thought and my supervisor thought.

It is a 2 point ball game with team B down and Team A throwing the ball in having to go the length of the floor with about 7.2 left in the game. As Team A is trying to inbound I am at C opposite in a pressing situation by Team B. A3 being guarded by B3 near the division line runs backward like he is going for the long pass and then starts to run up toward the ball, B3 grabs him and I call an INTENTIONAL FOUL. By rule I am correct in doing so because it was a foul that kept the clock from running, but it was wrong in common sense officiating. The kid didn't hug him because they knew he was the worse free throw shooter or foul him maliciously. My supervisor even got onto me after the game and as soon as he did or even before he did I knew I had screwed up.

Dave30 I understand exactly what you are trying to say and agree with you but if you don't go by the rule book on this forum, you will inevitably get eaten up by the shark(s).

P.S. If a kid loses the ball because of a bump and it goes off of that kid I have a foul, regardless of how slight. I'm not sacrificing a missed OOB call to "save a foul", but on that note never say never. I'm sure there will be a time or have been times where I didn't think the bump was sufficient enough for him to lose control or I just know from watching that the kid was a bad dribbler and shouldn't have been dribbling in the first place.

You said it better than I did....."common sense officiating!" I just can't explain myself well......

Tell me how you can stick completely by the book on a monday night and do four seventh grade games and get home before midnight!!! Does common sense officiating make sense there?.....I think so!

If a player has four fouls late in the game....do you ever let a touch foul go that you may have called earlier in the game? If one player has four fouls and another doesn't and there is a close play where you could give a foul to one or more players....do you lean towards not fouling the player out?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dave30

You said it better than I did....."common sense officiating!" I just can't explain myself well......

Unfortunately, neither of you understands what "common sense officiating" actually means.

It refers to knowing how and when to apply existing rules. It never means making up your own rules.

[dave30]

I don't make up rules. I can't explain it, but sometimes you can "bend" a rule just a little bit to make it a better game. I don't know how to explain it, but it is done at every level of basketball and it can be done without making up your own rules. Here is another one. IF a player falls down in the lane on offense.....do you wait until he gets up to give him a chance to get out? Or do you call 3 seconds? It's in the rulebook.....it should be 3 seconds right? But you just don't call it on a guy who falls down......common sense....right?

What if a girl is shooting a free throw and a teammate's toe is about an inch over the line into an opponent's space and she makes the shot......do you blow the whistle and call a lane violation? She broke the rule.....if you go by the book, you wipe out the free throw......I would motion to her and say quietly "watch your feet" before I would call a violation.

What if a 7th grade girl who is too small to shoot free throws finally makes one but goes about 2 inches over the line.....do you wipe it out?

You have to make decisions like this constantly and you can't always go strictly by the book in my opinion.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by dave30

I don't make up rules. I can't explain it, but sometimes you can "bend" a rule just a little bit to make it a better game. I don't know how to explain it, but it is done at every level of basketball and it can be done without making up your own rules. Here is another one. IF a player falls down in the lane on offense.....do you wait until he gets up to give him a chance to get out? Or do you call 3 seconds? It's in the rulebook.....it should be 3 seconds right? But you just don't call it on a guy who falls down......common sense....right?

What if a girl is shooting a free throw and a teammate's toe is about an inch over the line into an opponent's space and she makes the shot......do you blow the whistle and call a lane violation? She broke the rule.....if you go by the book, you wipe out the free throw......I would motion to her and say quietly "watch your feet" before I would call a violation.

What if a 7th grade girl who is too small to shoot free throws finally makes one but goes about 2 inches over the line.....do you wipe it out?

You have to make decisions like this constantly and you can't always go strictly by the book in my opinion.

I'd be uncomfortable reffing with a partner whose outlook was such as that. If a girl is lined up on the line during a free throw, correct it before administering the throw. Kids have to learn to play by the rules. They will do the same thing next week and wonder why it got called. If you were reffing football and you knew the running back had never scored before, would you award him a touchdown if he got "close enough" to the endzone?

And back to this "force-out" nonsense. How hard does a foul have to be to be a foul, guys? How do you measure the contact, in psi? For goodness sake, if B's contact forced A out, call the foul. Don't make up an out-of-bounds-on-B call. I've seen it, it was pretty obvious, and to me that just hurts our credibility. Because it WILL inevitably happen in front of B's bench, and they will all know that B NEVER touched the ball! And don't say, "I'd just tell the coach that I saved his player a foul," because then he KNOWS you're making your s--t up as you go along!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dave30

I don't make up rules. I can't explain it, but sometimes you can "bend" a rule just a little bit to make it a better game. I don't know how to explain it, but it is done at every level of basketball and it can be done without making up your own rules.

Jmo, Dave, but if you can't explain it, you shouldn't be doing it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dave30

If a player has four fouls late in the game....do you ever let a touch foul go that you may have called earlier in the game?

If you wouldn't have called the "touch foul" early in the game, the player would only have three, and you wouldn't have to make this tough decision late in the game.

[dave30]

I stand corrected many times over!

[Mountaineer]

I think this is the one post where I've seen the most intelligence ever on this website.

Billy Packer is a moron!

Truer words have never been spoken!