Philosophy

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not.

I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

If a player sticks his leg out, he gives up LGP. You can all a block. If a player sticks his hips out, he waives (there you go, Juulie) his LGP, so you can call a block. In the OP, the player did not stick his legs out. He had his LGP established and moved his body away from the offensive player but did not move his legs. I've got a no call, and if everyone insists I call somthing, it's going to be PC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

Sigh.....

Again, you really don't understand the concept of legal guarding position. I don't care what you say about the spirit and intent of the rule. The bottom line is that the rule book says that you are completely and totally wrong. And I know that you keep saying that you are a college and pro official too, but if you ever tried to call that nonsense in one of those games, you'd never do another one.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sigh.....

Again, you really don't understand the concept of legal guarding position. I don't care what you say about the spirit and intent of the rule. The bottom line is that the rule book says that you are completely and totally wrong. And I know that you keep saying that you are a college and pro official too, but if you ever tried to call that nonsense in one of those games, you'd never do another one.

Just to clarify to everyone, and so you will stop using and misleading everyone on the forum, I DO NOT WORK PRO BALL. I have worked it and plan on working it in the future, but am not working it at this very moment and if you will gladly point to me the post where I explicitly said that I will retract my statement right here and now.

[tomegun]

Even if you don't do pro ball, some of your comments are dubious for a college or experienced high school official.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Just to clarify to everyone, and so you will stop using and misleading everyone on the forum, I DO NOT WORK PRO BALL. I have worked it and plan on working it in the future, but am not working it at this very moment and if you will gladly point to me the post where I explicitly said that I will retract my statement right here and now.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...194#post357194

Your quotes were:

- "It is hard to keep up when you ARE working three different rulesets. I know in the pros and college....."

- "You are still allowed to work anything you want if you work in the WNBA and the NBA D-League. Don't forget about semi-pro and pro-ams in the summer as well. I have to keep up with these rulesets as I work and will be working with all of these rulesets. I hope that one one day I will be able to narrow it down to two, and finally to one, but for now that is how it has to be".

You stated that you are working three rulesets. I just want to clarify that if you are, then you are wrong in your interpretation of LGP and how to make a block/charge call in three different rulesets too.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

First of all, where does the "exact wording of the rule" protect the defender, LGP or not, who "stick[s] their leg out"? It doesn't. That is a block, every time. That is different than the situation under discussion.

Second, I am a firm believer that a player whose play meets "the exact wording of the rule" is not "get[ting] away" with anything. He or she is playing perfectly legal basketball and no referee should apply personal interpretations, even under the guise of "SPIRIT AND INTENT," to invent fouls on perfectly legal plays.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough.

It can, and has, been said enough. One must understand the literal meaning of a rule before one can begin to make legitimate exceptions to that literal meaning.

Routine applications of the "letter" of a rule can be made without appealing to the rule's spirit. The vast majority of cases fall within the scope of routine applications. Thus, it is wise to learn the rules.

[Kelvin green]

Call a block on a player with LGP. No way! no How.

If a players is playing good defense we should never penalize it, when the player is playing marginal defense then they get called for the foul. If this player does not move the feet, and had LGP (no extensions out side of the frame... etc) It is most likely nothing or PC...

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

If a players is playing dood defense we should never penalize it...

Dood defense? Is that a new trend in hs ball? I thought was mainly in the bar leagues...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Call a block on a player with LGP. No way! no How.

If a players is playing good defense we should never penalize it, when the player is playing marginal defense then they get called for the foul. If this player does not move the feet, and had LGP (no extensions out side of the frame... etc) It is most likely nothing or PC...

Or a no call followed closely by a travel.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

All those things constitute illegal contact. Just like sticking a leg out as an offensive player goes by constitutes illegal contact.

But, where I disagree with your earlier post is that contact with the leg is always a blocking foul. If the defender established LGP, and doesn't move his/her leg into the way of the offensive player when the offensive player trips/bumps into that leg, then there's no way it's a defensive foul.

What if the defender is just standing there, the offensive player goes around, steps on the defender's foot and falls down. Are you calling that a block?