Philosophy

[Rita C]

My partner and I discussed philosophy before the game last night. (I worked the game with another woman, which is always nice.)

She and I both played, her experience much more recent than mine. We discussed letting the players play the game. I talked about how another partner in a previous game called blocking fouls I didn't agree with. A player receives the ball, then turns and starts dribbling. A defender is in legal position but in direct line to the basket and the dribbler tries to go past. The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot. The defender has no chance to get out of the way and isn't illegal to start with. My previous partner called that a blocking foul every time. I consider it incidental contact, if anything.

My partner last night agreed. Do you? What do you do in a game where one partner is calling those and you don't? Do you adapt for consistency as a team? Or do you just hope for the best, hoping you covered everything in pregame?

Rita

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Rita C

My partner and I discussed philosophy before the game last night. (I worked the game with another woman, which is always nice.)

She and I both played, her experience much more recent than mine. We discussed letting the players play the game. I talked about how another partner in a previous game called blocking fouls I didn't agree with. A player receives the ball, then turns and starts dribbling. A defender is in legal position but in direct line to the basket and the dribbler tries to go past. The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot. The defender has no chance to get out of the way and isn't illegal to start with. My previous partner called that a blocking foul every time. I consider it incidental contact, if anything.

My partner last night agreed. Do you? What do you do in a game where one partner is calling those and you don't? Do you adapt for consistency as a team? Or do you just hope for the best, hoping you covered everything in pregame?

Rita

Hi, Rita. Hope your season is going well. It IS always nice to work with another woman, and I think it's good for the girls (players) to see women continuing in sports after hs.

About your play, I think I'd have had to see it. Generally, if a defender leans, it's a foul, but there also needs to be contact, and enough contact to be a foul. So it's hard to say what I'd do if I were there. If the dribbler's only problem was the trip, and the leaning didn't cause anything, I'd probably let it go. If the foot didn't move, it was probably legal, if my picture from your description is accurate.

About differing philosophies, you have to first match your philosophy to the body of refs in your area, which it is to be hoped matches the general NFHS philosophy. If you feel confident that your judgment (which is what we're talking about in your case play) is within the prescribed thinking of your assignor, then your partner has to be the one to ultimately face the music. If he's saying that whenever the dribbler trips over a defender he calls it a block, regardless of whether or not the defender had LGP, then he's dead wrong. And you shouldn't match that no matter what. You might even want to report him to your assignor, depending on how the politics work in your area.

But when it's a philosophy about how to handle a blow-out, or how to deal with rough play, or how to keep a difficult coach in line, matching is a good thing. Also, defining advantage/disadvantage on borderline plays is good to match up if you can get a sneak peek at some of his borderline calls.

If you finally can't match at all, and things are just looking way unfair, you can try to arrange it so that you're always under the basket, or he's always under the basket, so the same ref is getting first crack at the same plays. At least this is how I've tried to handle it when P and I are calling the same things at all.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If you finally can't match at all, and things are just looking way unfair, you can try to arrange it so that you're always under the basket, or he's always under the basket, so the same ref is getting first crack at the same plays. At least this is how I've tried to handle it when P and I are calling the same things at all.

How can you possibly do this in a game?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

How can you possibly do this in a game?

Switch on every foul? If you're lead at one end, and call a foul, you'll end up as lead at the other end so you can call the same play the same way. Same with trail. It's not that difficult.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Switch on every foul? If you're lead at one end, and call a foul, you'll end up as lead at the other end so you can call the same play the same way. Same with trail. It's not that difficult.

Oh, so when you officiate these plays happen back to back right after you switch? That must work out nice for you. I don't work games where the players are so kind as to have similar plays back to back so we can make the same call every time. Where does the calling official go when it is a three man game? Are you sure it isn't that difficult? Think about it and tell me again how you can make sure the same official is at lead for these calls.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Oh, so when you officiate these plays happen back to back right after you switch? That must work out nice for you. I don't work games where the players are so kind as to have similar plays back to back so we can make the same call every time. Where does the calling official go when it is a three man game? Are you sure it isn't that difficult? Think about it and tell me again how you can make sure the same official is at lead for these calls.

I don't work any 3-whistle, so I can't answer that part. No it doesn't always work out nicely like that, but sometimes it does. It's not a panacea to totally even out the calling. It's just one more possible way to reduce the number of problems that we can create for ourselves. Sometimes my partner and I can agree, sometimes the same person can be in place to call the same thing at both ends.

Occasionally, we have a problem when each partner refuses to adjust their calls. When that happens, and I think that's what the question in the oP was about, I try to adjust a little, and I try to make it so that one of us is getting the same calls at both ends. It's not the final answer, but it's one more tool.

The tone of your responses seems a little snippy. What's the issue?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Rita C

The defender leans to avoid the collision but the dribbler trips over the foot.

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mick

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

oh, duh. Defender leaned away. No way this is a foul.

mick, she leaned away because she's young and inexperienced, and she doesn't get the "take a charge" thing yet. She'll either get it, or she won't play next year.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by mick

Why does the defender lean away from the dribbler.
I don't think I have seen that before.

7th grade boys. First game. He would have been trying to avoid a collision when he realized a collision was happening.

The whole point is that we don't have to call a foul just because a collision or a fall happens. This guy calls fouls almost every time someone goes down.

Rita

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rita C

The whole point is that we don't have to call a foul just because a collision or a fall happens. This guy calls fouls almost every time someone goes down.

If the offensive player has the ball, and the defender isn't taking a dive, I'd say that you should have a foul call most of the time if there's a collision and one of them is going down. That just ain't incidental contact the majority of the time imo. One of them is getting some kind of advantage when there's that much contact-- either the dribbler knocking the defender out of his way or the defender stopping the dribbler from getting to the basket.

[cropduster]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the offensive player has the ball, and the defender isn't taking a dive, I'd say that you should have a foul call most of the time if there's a collision and one of them is going down. That just ain't incidental contact the majority of the time imo. One of them is getting some kind of advantage when there's that much contact-- either the dribbler knocking the defender out of his way or the defender stopping the dribbler from getting to the basket.

I'm with Jurassic. One of the assigners I call for says that if one hits the floor in most cases there needs to be a fouled called. The other one; well, he's never seen me call, we just kind of do our own thing.

[btaylor64]

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not. Players are more sly than we give them credit for. Think about this play:

A1 sprinting up the floor dribbling. B1 trailing just behind and to the left. Well B1's man is on the other side of the floor so he/she decides to go right behind A1 and they tangle up feet and A1 goes to the ground and loses the ball, but it didn't look like B1 was trying to do that on purpose. This is one form of a tripping foul that I call everytime regardless of intent.

Another one:

A1 dribbling with B1 in legal guarding position. A1 shakes left and comes back right. While A1 attempts to go by B1, B1 opens up his leg (inner thigh part sticking out toward defender) and A1 goes to the ground. I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Now I'm not saying everything is written in concrete with what I'm saying. There has been instances where I have passed on a trip for one reason or another (maybe I just missed the call). There can always be exceptions (i.e., the ball was loose and you didn't want to call a loose ball foul with bodies already everywhere on the floor.)