Philosophy

[cropduster]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the offensive player has the ball, and the defender isn't taking a dive, I'd say that you should have a foul call most of the time if there's a collision and one of them is going down. That just ain't incidental contact the majority of the time imo. One of them is getting some kind of advantage when there's that much contact-- either the dribbler knocking the defender out of his way or the defender stopping the dribbler from getting to the basket.

I'm with Jurassic. One of the assigners I call for says that if one hits the floor in most cases there needs to be a fouled called. The other one; well, he's never seen me call, we just kind of do our own thing.

[btaylor64]

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not. Players are more sly than we give them credit for. Think about this play:

A1 sprinting up the floor dribbling. B1 trailing just behind and to the left. Well B1's man is on the other side of the floor so he/she decides to go right behind A1 and they tangle up feet and A1 goes to the ground and loses the ball, but it didn't look like B1 was trying to do that on purpose. This is one form of a tripping foul that I call everytime regardless of intent.

Another one:

A1 dribbling with B1 in legal guarding position. A1 shakes left and comes back right. While A1 attempts to go by B1, B1 opens up his leg (inner thigh part sticking out toward defender) and A1 goes to the ground. I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Now I'm not saying everything is written in concrete with what I'm saying. There has been instances where I have passed on a trip for one reason or another (maybe I just missed the call). There can always be exceptions (i.e., the ball was loose and you didn't want to call a loose ball foul with bodies already everywhere on the floor.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Rita I agree with the block call. Anytime a player trips another player or feet get tangled up I am calling a tripping foul. Accidental or not, LGP or not.

I don't care whether B1 has legal guarding position or not that is a non-basketball defensive move used by people who are too lazy to move and hope that the player will trip and the refs will deem it incidental contact.

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious?

Nothing personal, but that is absolutely and completely ridiculous. If a defender has a legal guarding position, then the position of his legs is legal too. If an opponent then goes over his legs, you ONLY have two possible calls-- a foul on the offensive player or no-call. You CAN'T call a block on a defender with LGP. EVER!!

Ridiculous advice.

And btw, it's exactly the same rule in NCAA and the pros too....the levels that you say you are doing.

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You really don't understand the concepts of legal guarding position, do you?

We're talking about an offensive player going over the leg of a defender with LGP. We're not discussing the scenarios that you're trying to interject now.

You claimed that it is a foul on the defender always if the offensive player goes over the leg of a defender with LGP. Again, that is a ridiculous statement. If the defender has LGP, then the stance of his legs is also legal. That means that the one thing that you can't call, by rule, is a block. It's that simple.

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

If a player sticks his leg out, he gives up LGP. You can all a block. If a player sticks his hips out, he waives (there you go, Juulie) his LGP, so you can call a block. In the OP, the player did not stick his legs out. He had his LGP established and moved his body away from the offensive player but did not move his legs. I've got a no call, and if everyone insists I call somthing, it's going to be PC.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

Sigh.....

Again, you really don't understand the concept of legal guarding position. I don't care what you say about the spirit and intent of the rule. The bottom line is that the rule book says that you are completely and totally wrong. And I know that you keep saying that you are a college and pro official too, but if you ever tried to call that nonsense in one of those games, you'd never do another one.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough. By sticking their leg out they are hoping you are going to call that incidental contact, and that is exactly what you are doing. I am a firm believer that it is not the intent of the rule that the player should get away with something like that just because the exact wording of the rule protects them.

P.S. If you would kindly read the bottom of my first post in this thread, I would greatly and ALWAYS appreciate it. Thank you.

First of all, where does the "exact wording of the rule" protect the defender, LGP or not, who "stick[s] their leg out"? It doesn't. That is a block, every time. That is different than the situation under discussion.

Second, I am a firm believer that a player whose play meets "the exact wording of the rule" is not "get[ting] away" with anything. He or she is playing perfectly legal basketball and no referee should apply personal interpretations, even under the guise of "SPIRIT AND INTENT," to invent fouls on perfectly legal plays.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

By rule, huh? You always get me there. SPIRIT AND INTENT, SPIRIT AND INTENT! Can't be said enough.

It can, and has, been said enough. One must understand the literal meaning of a rule before one can begin to make legitimate exceptions to that literal meaning.

Routine applications of the "letter" of a rule can be made without appealing to the rule's spirit. The vast majority of cases fall within the scope of routine applications. Thus, it is wise to learn the rules.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So its not a foul if a defender has LGP and the offensive player makes a move to the hole and the defender re-routes the offensive player with a chest bump or body check? I guess not since he has LGP. And what about a forearm on the offensive player on the perimeter? He has LGP, so is everything he does legal within having LGP?

All those things constitute illegal contact. Just like sticking a leg out as an offensive player goes by constitutes illegal contact.

But, where I disagree with your earlier post is that contact with the leg is always a blocking foul. If the defender established LGP, and doesn't move his/her leg into the way of the offensive player when the offensive player trips/bumps into that leg, then there's no way it's a defensive foul.

What if the defender is just standing there, the offensive player goes around, steps on the defender's foot and falls down. Are you calling that a block?

[Adam]

We've been told that most times on a block/charge scenario, when a player goes down, you should have a foul somewhere. The OP, however, I would say is the exception. I have to wonder, though, how it's happening so often in a game.
I think I know the answer. I played point guard in school, and I remember a game where I drew about 4 fouls by purposefully tripping over the defender's feet as we were running side by side. I kept doing it, because we kept gettin the call. My thoughts; if this is happening more than once in a game with the same offensive player, you need to consider that he might be doing it on purpose.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

We've been told that most times on a block/charge scenario, when a player goes down, you should have a foul somewhere. The OP, however, I would say is the exception. I have to wonder, though, how it's happening so often in a game.
I think I know the answer. I played point guard in school, and I remember a game where I drew about 4 fouls by purposefully tripping over the defender's feet as we were running side by side. I kept doing it, because we kept gettin the call. My thoughts; if this is happening more than once in a game with the same offensive player, you need to consider that he might be doing it on purpose.

I agree with this totally. If a kid seems like he his flopping to get this call, I will no call it and tell him to stop it and from then on the onus is on him. Good statement Snaqwells