Another Back Court Question

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Thanks , I concluded from scrappers response that there would not be a BC call since no team control after B tipped the ball. If the balll had gone into the backcourt after B tipped it then A went to recover I would not call a violation. That was who my response was to.

Scrapper was talking about it not being a back court violation under NBA rules only, which is correct afaik. Iow, if you were just responding to Scrapper, then you did have it wrong.

[Scrapper1]

Jurrassic is right about my previous post. It was meant to apply to NBA rules only. I've edited that post to make it clearer.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Scrapper was talking about it not being a back court violation under NBA rules only, which is correct afaik. Iow, if you were just responding to Scrapper, then you did have it wrong.

So your saying even if B deflects the ball into the backcourt and then A goes to get it there should be a BC violation? That is where I am missing something.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

So your saying even if B deflects the ball into the backcourt and then A goes to get it there should be a BC violation? That is where I am missing something.

Here's the scenario we're seeing here. A1 has the ball in the front court and attempts a pass to A2. B1 deflects (tips) the pass towards the back court. Before it crosses over, A3 (standing in the front court) tips it in an attempt to grab it. A3 then chases the ball into the back court. This is a violation in HS and college, as team control never ended and A was the last to touch the ball in the front court as well as the first to touch it after the ball went into the back court.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Here's the scenario we're seeing here. A1 has the ball in the front court and attempts a pass to A2. B1 deflects (tips) the pass towards the back court. Before it crosses over, A3 (standing in the front court) tips it in an attempt to grab it. A3 then chases the ball into the back court. This is a violation in HS and college, as team control never ended and A was the last to touch the ball in the front court as well as the first to touch it after the ball went into the back court.

No one is questioning this scenario. I ask if A did not touch the ball again after B tipped it until the ball was clearly in the back court, would you still have a violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

No one is questioning this scenario. I ask if A did not touch the ball again after B tipped it until the ball was clearly in the back court, would you still have a violation?

Nope. Not me.

[SWMOzebra]

As a second year HS ref, this has been the source of endless confusion for me. I worked the Show-Me State games in Columbia, MO over the summer and watched what I thought were multiple BC violations go uncalled by more experienced officials (one worked state championship game a couple of years ago). When I asked, one told me that the defense had last touched the ball, so the offense could go into their BC and re-establish control with no penalty.

So, I'm at my mechanics clinic this fall and ask the head man giving the clinic how this could be...since team control doesn't end on an interrupted dribble. He essentially told me what I thought before...it doesn't matter if the defense tips it away or not, team control doesn't change and it's a violation for the offense to retrieve the ball from BC.

Yet, I have hardly worked a game at any level (JH, freshman, or rec league) where some coach or fan thinks the NBA version is the only correct version. I rarely watch NBA, so now I see where the source of some of the confusion originates.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

As a second year HS ref, this has been the source of endless confusion for me. I worked the Show-Me State games in Columbia, MO over the summer and watched what I thought were multiple BC violations go uncalled by more experienced officials (one worked state championship game a couple of years ago). When I asked, one told me that the defense had last touched the ball, so the offense could go into their BC and re-establish control with no penalty.

So, I'm at my mechanics clinic this fall and ask the head man giving the clinic how this could be...since team control doesn't end on an interrupted dribble. He essentially told me what I thought before...it doesn't matter if the defense tips it away or not, team control doesn't change and it's a violation for the offense to retrieve the ball from BC.

Yet, I have hardly worked a game at any level (JH, freshman, or rec league) where some coach or fan thinks the NBA version is the only correct version. I rarely watch NBA, so now I see where the source of some of the confusion originates.

4 Requirements:

1) A has Team Control
2) The ball reaches the FC
3) A is the last to touch before the ball goes to the BC
4) A is the first to touch after the ball goes to the BC

3 Exceptions for airborne players

1) Jump Ball
2) Throw In
3) Defense

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

As a second year HS ref, this has been the source of endless confusion for me. I worked the Show-Me State games in Columbia, MO over the summer and watched what I thought were multiple BC violations go uncalled by more experienced officials (one worked state championship game a couple of years ago). When I asked, one told me that the defense had last touched the ball, so the offense could go into their BC and re-establish control with no penalty.

Right call, slightly wrong explaination. The offensive team is not "re-establishing control" in this situation, as they never lost team control. The reason this is not a backcourt violation is that the rule requires the offense be the last to touch it in the frontcourt if a violation is to be called.

So, I'm at my mechanics clinic this fall and ask the head man giving the clinic how this could be...since team control doesn't end on an interrupted dribble. He essentially told me what I thought before...it doesn't matter if the defense tips it away or not, team control doesn't change and it's a violation for the offense to retrieve the ball from BC.

He's right, team control hasn't ended, but it doesn't mean a violation has occured. There are basically two similar, but distinct, scenarios:

Version 1 - Ball in offensive posession in frontcourt, defensive tip (in either frontcourt or backcourt), offense touches ball in backcourt - no violation.

Version 2 - Ball in offensive posession in frontcourt, defensive tip, offensive touch (tip or control) IN FRONTCOURT, offensive touch in backcourt - violation.

The problem comes in that people see the defensive touch in #2 and think that the offense is subsequently absolved of any and all backcourt violations.

Yet, I have hardly worked a game at any level (JH, freshman, or rec league) where some coach or fan thinks the NBA version is the only correct version. I rarely watch NBA, so now I see where the source of some of the confusion originates.

Trust me; you're not alone.