Interesting Situation

[PIAA REF]

This situation was brought up at my last meeting. Girls varsity game, 3 man crew.
A1 shoots the ball beyond the 3 point arch, Trail has a foul call on the shot on B1. At almost the same time (maybe a hundreth of a second later) The lead official has a push on A2. The shot misses. They decided that since the first foul was first that the second foul should be ignored. I disagree. I believe that the correct way to do this is count both fouls, A1 shoots 3 free throws with the lane cleared. Then B3 would either shoot free thows if their team was in the bonus or B would have the ball for a spot throw-in out of bounds where the foul occurred. (order of what was called)

Let me know if I was correct.

[refnjoe]

I'll take a stab at it:

I'm with you. The ball remains live during the shot, after the defensive foul. (rule 6-7, exception C)

Therefore, the foul by A2 occurred during a live ball and we have a false double foul (4-19-9)- penalized in order of occurrence as you say.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

A1 shoots the ball beyond the 3 point arch, Trail has a foul call on the shot on B1. At almost the same time (maybe a hundreth of a second later) The lead official has a push on A2. The shot misses. They decided that since the first foul was first that the second foul should be ignored. I disagree. I believe that the correct way to do this is count both fouls, A1 shoots 3 free throws with the lane cleared. Then B3 would either shoot free thows if their team was in the bonus or B would have the ball for a spot throw-in out of bounds where the foul occurred. (order of what was called)

Let me know if I was correct.

It's strictly a judgment call by the officials as to which way they want to go. Whatever they decide is fine by me. Having said that, they do have to administer whatever call that they decide to go with properly.

The officials usually do get together and decide if one foul preceded the other, and they should ignore the second foul unless the contact was intentional or flagrant. That only holds true though if the first foul caused an immediate dead ball. In this situation, it doesn't sound like that was true as the ball was still in the air on the shot and was thus the ball was still live. So....you could call a false double foul, with 2 personal fouls, and penalize them in the order that they occurred---> foul on the shooter followed by a foul on the shooter's teammate.

You could also call it a "simultaneous" foul if the officials decided that was the way to go too.
The definition of a "simultaneous" personal foul (rule 4-19-10) says that they occur at approximately the same time, not at exactly the same time. This sounds like it fits that definition also. If you do go with the simultaneous personal foul, then there's no FT's and you go to the POI. The POI now depends on whether the ball was still in the shooter's hands or not when the fouls occurred. If you decide it was in the shooter's hands, the POI would be A having team control and therefore team A would get the ball for a throw-in at the closest spot to where A1 got fouled. If you decide that the shot was in the air when the fouls were called, then the POI was no team control, and you go with the arrow and administer a spot throw-in at the closest spot to where the ball was when the whistle blew.

What the officials can't do is ignore the second foul if it occurred before A1's shot was over. They can only ignore it if the foul occurred after the try was over.

Personally, if the fouls werre that close together, I'd go with the simultaneous foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You could also call it a "simultaneous" foul if the officials decided that was the way to go too.
The definition of a "simultaneous" personal foul (rule 4-19-10) says that they occur at approximately the same time, not at exactly the same time. This sounds like it fits that definition also. If you do go with the simultaneous personal foul, then there's no FT's and you go to the POI. .

So even though the first foul was a three point shot, the fouls cancel out? I think I'm right, but not 100% sure.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

So even though the first foul was a three point shot, the fouls cancel out? I think I'm right, but not 100% sure.

Yes - the rulebook only says that fouls cancel out. There is no regard as to whether the foul is shooting/non-shooting, or the value of the try.

If you're a football fan, this is analagous to an illegal formation and a DPI cancelling each other out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes - the rulebook only says that fouls cancel out. There is no regard as to whether the foul is shooting/non-shooting, or the value of the try.

If you're a football fan, this is analagous to an illegal formation and a DPI cancelling each other out.

You are wise beyond your years.

You must be a Yankees fan.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You are wise beyond your years.

You must be a Yankees fan.

If that's the case, I'm a first-grader reading at a second-grade level.

[Nevadaref]

What JR wrote is correct.