Another back court question

dsturdy5 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 08:08pm

I haven't posted in a while but have been lurking for a while. Anyway, I have a backcourt question.

Team A has the ball in their front court. A1 dribbles the ball off of her foot. The ball is knocked around the front court by both teams for a few seconds. Team B gains posession in their backcourt (A's front court). B1 loses posession. A2 dives for the ball, grabs the ball with both hands to avoid traveling while sliding across the floor, she tosses it and it goes into their backcourt. A3 is the first to touch it.

Back court or no call?

canuckrefguy · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 08:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5
I haven't posted in a while but have been lurking for a while. Anyway, I have a backcourt question.

Team A has the ball in their front court. A1 dribbles the ball off of her foot. The ball is knocked around the front court by both teams for a few seconds. Team B gains posession in their backcourt (A's front court). B1 loses posession. A2 dives for the ball, grabs the ball with both hands to avoid traveling while sliding across the floor, she tosses it and it goes into their backcourt. A3 is the first to touch it.

Back court or no call?

The three classic questions:

Did Team A have control of the ball in their frontcourt?

Was a Team A player last to touch the ball before it went in the backcourt?

Was a Team A player first to touch the ball in the backcourt?

Issue in question seems to be whether A2 had control...

I say yes. Backcourt violation

dsturdy5 · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 08:42pm

To answer your question, Team A was the last to touch it in the front court and first to touch it in the backcourt. The problem was player control. In my opnion, team A had gained control, so I called it a backcourt violation.

I explained this to the coach of team A, after he had returned from orbit following the call.

He spent the rest of the game (mind you he was up 20 at the time with about 8 minutes left) telling the entire gym that I did not know the rules and that he did. When I was on his side of the floor, he mumbled it. "Try and tell me I don't know the rules...I KNOW I KNOW the rules. Someone better get you a rule book. Take a class or something." When I was on the other side of the (tiny) gym, he said it at a more conversational level. In any event, the entire gym knew his stance. I kept my calm and pretended not to hear him. Even out in the parking lot after the game he was still harping on it.

He went to the assigner of this league and told him what an awful job I did and I lost out on playoff games for this league. It was "only a rec league" but they pay more for their playoffs and the cash would have been nice since I am getting married. This has been bothering me since February. I think my bigger issue was with the assigner not even asking for my side of the story and just hearing what he had to say and telling me "I heard you made some major gaffs in the game last Friday. I can't have you doing any playoff games if you make mistakes that (coach-x) said you made." I called my partner from that game and he said to me he would have called it the same but it is common knowledge that this particular assigner ponies up to the coaches.

Rant over...

Dan_ref · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:03pm

Maybe you got the over&back call right, maybe you didn't. Sounds like you did but who cares.

You should have T'ed that SOB up as soon as he went into orbit on your call.

And sent his @ss to the paking lot before he could finish asking "WHAT WAS THAT FOR???!!!"

There's absolutely no reason to take that kind of crap at a game.

Once you learn how to take care of business you'll get plenty of playoff games.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:06pm

#1, it was a BC violation based on your description.

#2, you don't allow a coach to harp on anything for 8 minutes. Did ignoring him shut him up? No, it didn't. Warn him that you've heard enough and them stick him in the a$$ when he ignores the warning.

#3, why didn't you speak up when the assignor spoke to you?

JMHO - Sounds like you have a confidence problem. It seems to me that you brought a lot of this on yourself by not standing up to the coach and the assignor.

dsturdy5 · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:11pm

I know I should have T'd him. I have given more T's in this league than anywhere else and I was trying to avoid gaining a reputation with the people I work with there. Besides, he had gotten t'd up in more than half of his games this year and his team was routinely blowing other teams out. I'm not sure what his issue was.

dsturdy5 · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:14pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
#1, it was a BC violation based on your description.

#2, you don't allow a coach to harp on anything for 8 minutes. Did ignoring him shut him up? No, it didn't. Warn him that you've heard enough and them stick him in the a$$ when he ignores the warning.

#3, why didn't you speak up when the assignor spoke to you?

JMHO - Sounds like you have a confidence problem. It seems to me that you brought a lot of this on yourself by not standing up to the coach and the assignor.

Honestly the assignor didn't give me a chance. he left me a message (I realize I didn't make that clear earlier) and I called him back to explain and he wasn't there. left him several messages, never got a reply.

As for confidence, I always "sell" my calls even if I've screwed up big time. I have been told as much by some pretty experienced officials that I have worked with.

Dan_ref · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5
I know I should have T'd him. I have given more T's in this league than anywhere else and I was trying to avoid gaining a reputation with the people I work with there. Besides, he had gotten t'd up in more than half of his games this year and his team was routinely blowing other teams out. I'm not sure what his issue was.

His issue is you don't T him up enough. People like that get zero room.

This is a funny business. Once you earn a rep that you won't take sh1t you will have many fewer T's.

Good luck.

dsturdy5 · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:20pm

I appreciate all of the replies to this. Thanks.

canuckrefguy · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5
I explained this to the coach of team A, after he had returned from orbit following the call.

He spent the rest of the game (mind you he was up 20 at the time with about 8 minutes left) telling the entire gym that I did not know the rules and that he did. When I was on his side of the floor, he mumbled it. "Try and tell me I don't know the rules...I KNOW I KNOW the rules. Someone better get you a rule book. Take a class or something." When I was on the other side of the (tiny) gym, he said it at a more conversational level. In any event, the entire gym knew his stance. I kept my calm and pretended not to hear him. Even out in the parking lot after the game he was still harping on it.

He went to the assigner of this league and told him what an awful job I did and I lost out on playoff games for this league. It was "only a rec league" but they pay more for their playoffs and the cash would have been nice since I am getting married. This has been bothering me since February. I think my bigger issue was with the assigner not even asking for my side of the story and just hearing what he had to say and telling me "I heard you made some major gaffs in the game last Friday. I can't have you doing any playoff games if you make mistakes that (coach-x) said you made." I called my partner from that game and he said to me he would have called it the same but it is common knowledge that this particular assigner ponies up to the coaches.

Rant over...

1. You should have whacked (T'd) this MF into the parking lot - pardon my acronym.

2. Sounds like losing games in this rec league is a blessing in disguise.

Mark Dexter · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 10:27pm

Should have been two whistles here - one for the backcourt call (once A2 throws the ball, she has player and team control - the situation could have been different on a tap or deflection) and one for a technical foul on the coach.

Frankly, I'd be happy to lose games from this particular league.

Nevadaref · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 05, 2005, 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5 A2 dives for the ball, grabs the ball with both hands to avoid traveling while sliding across the floor, she tosses it and it goes into their backcourt.

1. You have a good understanding of the backcourt rule. Good call.

2. As others have told you, you need to work on your use of the technical foul and handling coaches. Ignoring the coach is usually not the best course of action.

3. You may need some work on the traveling rule, however. It is unclear from the clip above if you are somehow connecting traveling and sliding across the floor.
Please don't do this. They have nothing to do with each other.
Casebook 4.43.4 Situation B shows sliding with the ball after diving to the floor to gain possession is legal and not a violation.
The player doesn't have to do anything to avoid traveling in your situation. In fact, doing absolutely nothing is the clearest way not to violate.

If you already knew this, then that is good and you merely need to clarify your writing a bit.

Camron Rust · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 06, 2005, 12:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5

Back court or no call?

The three classic questions:

Did Team A have control of the ball in their frontcourt?

Was a Team A player last to touch the ball before it went in the backcourt?

Was a Team A player first to touch the ball in the backcourt?

Almost...it's not WHERE team A players touch the ball but when the touch it relative to where the ball goes:

Did Team A have control of the ball

Did the ball gain FC status (no team a player needs to actually touch it in the frontcout)

Was a Team A player last to touch the ball before it went in the backcourt? (it doesn't matter where the team A player actually touches the ball or where the ball is when they touch it).

~~Was a Team A player first to touch the ball in the backcourt?~~

Was team A the first to touch the ball after it went to the backcourt? (it doesn't matter where the team A player actually touches the ball or where the ball is when they touch it).

rainmaker · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 06, 2005, 09:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by dsturdy5
I know I should have T'd him. I have given more T's in this league than anywhere else and I was trying to avoid gaining a reputation with the people I work with there. Besides, he had gotten t'd up in more than half of his games this year and his team was routinely blowing other teams out. I'm not sure what his issue was.

I've had seasons where I gave way, way, way too many T's, and seasons where I didn't give nearly enough (apologies to Mr. Grammar Guy for that sentence!). My pendulum is swinging down toward a happy medium, and here's how I got there. I decided where my line was. I stuck to it. Coaches know me, and they know that I call things tight, but try to be fair. They also know that they get one or two brief discussions per game and one warning. I give coaches about one or two T's per season now, and each is well earned. This doesn't include rec ball. Any league where I legitimately give more than one or two per 8 to 10 weeks, I don't work any more. It's just not worth it.

If you keep trying to get it right, you will. Stick to it. Find your own line. Don't let anyone cross it. You'll find your balance point and you'll start to feel more comfortable.