flags on our uni's

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I hope we can find a way to avoid any political statements at all. If the rule is, "If one ref wears them, the whole crew has to" where does that leave the Jehovah's Witness, or the Communist Party member, or anyone else who feels uncomfortable wearing an American flag? If some refs do and some don't there is an inevitable comparison that could be drawn, and it doesn;t have anything to do with basketball. I don't think the politics of the world belong on the basketball floor, or the soccer field, or where ever we are officiating.

Juulie, I understand your point and the purpose of my reply is not to agree or disagree with you, but only further the discussion.

Here are some points you may find interesting: the custom of starting sporting events with the singing of our National Anthem began in WWII at baseball games. While it is not a requirement of MLB, it is done at all games, and players stand at attention with their caps off, regardless of their personal beliefs.

The addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance were not in the original version, and the adoption of the motto "In God We Trust" and the addition of that motto to our currency and coins happened during the Eisenhower administration.

There are American citizens who object to all of this in exercising their freedoms, but they do it anyway for whatever reason (one reason having to do with currency is that there is really no alternative - everyone has to use money).

During times of war, some civil liberties are reduced or suspended. That's a fact. Whether this is good or bad is another discussion. My point is that sometimes a person makes a choice about putting their allegiance to their country during a time of war ahead of their personal beliefs. This is because of the need to participate in whatever way in the defense of their country to avoid obliteration. If you want to talk offline about my personal beliefs as to what situation our country is in now, and what we should do about it, I would be glad to have that discussion with you if I see you next weekend at The Hoop in Beaverton.

Now, how all this translates into being required to wear a flag patch on a ref shirt is not clear.

One last comment on your remark about members of the Communist Party not liking wearing our flag - although I am a firm believer in separation of church and state and the civil rights of the individual, I'm not sure I support extending those rights to people whose stated goal is the overthrow of the system that establishes and protects those rights.

OK - having said that - let's get back to basketball stuff.




[Edited by Mark Padgett on Sep 30th, 2001 at 02:00 PM]

[walter]

Our association is requiring the flag be worn on the back of the uniform one inch below the neck line. We are ordering two flag patches for each membe at the board's cost. This came as result of a vote at our last meeting.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I hope we can find a way to avoid any political statements at all. If the rule is, "If one ref wears them, the whole crew has to" where does that leave the Jehovah's Witness, or the Communist Party member, or anyone else who feels uncomfortable wearing an American flag? If some refs do and some don't there is an inevitable comparison that could be drawn, and it doesn;t have anything to do with basketball. I don't think the politics of the world belong on the basketball floor, or the soccer field, or where ever we are officiating.

I was not aware that being a Jehovah's Witness precludes
one from wearing what amounts to a symbol of unity, if
they are then fine. But I can't for the life of me
understand why a member of the Communist Party would *not*
want to wear the flag, any more than a member of the
Democratic, Republican, Right to Life party or the Flat
Earth society for that matter. No offense meant, just
wondering.

[rainmaker]

I guess I don't agree or disagree with any of this -- well, that's disingenuous, but which I disagree with and which I don't isn't the point. And that's the point I am trying to make. What difference does it make to my basketball whether I am patriotic or not and how I choose to express that? Part of our freedom here in a democratic state is the freedom to not be forced to express a certain political view, if we don't want to. If politics has nothing to do with basketball -- I'm talking national politics, not association politics!! -- it shouldn't be forced into basketball. God help us if Walter's board has much influence nationally. Where can that kind of proscription lead, but to trouble???

[Tim Roden]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I guess I don't agree or disagree with any of this -- well, that's disingenuous, but which I disagree with and which I don't isn't the point. And that's the point I am trying to make. What difference does it make to my basketball whether I am patriotic or not and how I choose to express that? Part of our freedom here in a democratic state is the freedom to not be forced to express a certain political view, if we don't want to. If politics has nothing to do with basketball -- I'm talking national politics, not association politics!! -- it shouldn't be forced into basketball. God help us if Walter's board has much influence nationally. Where can that kind of proscription lead, but to trouble???

Julie, I think at this sensitive time in our nation it does make a point. While some may be a passifist or Non God and Country people or whatever divergent view you have. You will be the only member of the crew without the American flag on his/her uniform. As such a person, you could end up as a target for millitant patriots and thus put yourself in a position for even more verbal abuse then you are used to. Wear the flag and remember it stands for a UNITED States and we are all in this thing together. We wear the flag to remeber the fallen in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. We wear the flag to remember those now flying over Afganastan who will fight and die for the cause. We wear the flag because we have the right to disagree on where and how to wear the flag.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I guess I don't agree or disagree with any of this -- well, that's disingenuous, but which I disagree with and which I don't isn't the point. And that's the point I am trying to make. What difference does it make to my basketball whether I am patriotic or not and how I choose to express that? Part of our freedom here in a democratic state is the freedom to not be forced to express a certain political view, if we don't want to. If politics has nothing to do with basketball -- I'm talking national politics, not association politics!! -- it shouldn't be forced into basketball. God help us if Walter's board has much influence nationally. Where can that kind of proscription lead, but to trouble???

Sigh. We're at war. My 17 yr old son wants to go off and
kill people. When I ask God for help (which I do not make
a habit of doing, BTW) I will not be asking Him to prevent
Walter's association from installing a fascist govt. My 2
cents: if you don't have a problem wearing your state or
association patch then you probably should not have a
problem wearing the US flag on your stripes. But as they
say, we might disagree but I will defend your right to
sound like a fool, err, I mean to hold your opinion.

I have nothing ales to add.

[Mark Padgett]

My buddy Juulie asks what politics has to do with basketball. During normal times, practically nothing. During a war, politics has to do with everything. Make no mistake about it, we are at war.

Yes, it's true that during times of war, some civil liberties are suppressed in interests of national security, so that we can win the war and then continue with those hard-fought civil liberties. The operative words there are "hard-fought."

OK, having said that, do I really believe that requiring basketball officials to wear a flag patch furthers our national security interests? Of course not. But that's not the point. I believe the point is that it's important for the governing officials association to demonstrate that the playing of the game is put into perspective. What I mean is that - while we are playing a game - we have not forgotten there is something going on that is infinitely more important and that we recognize that. To my mind, that is the significance of wearing the flag patch - to indicate that I have not lost sight of the real news. I think this is what an association is trying to convey.

After all, it's just a game.

[walter]

OK, having said that, do I really believe that requiring basketball officials to wear a flag patch furthers our national security interests? Of course not. But that's not the point. I believe the point is that it's important for the governing officials association to demonstrate that the playing of the game is put into perspective. What I mean is that - while we are playing a game - we have not forgotten there is something going on that is infinitely more important and that we recognize that. To my mind, that is the significance of wearing the flag patch - to indicate that I have not lost sight of the real news. I think this is what an association is trying to convey.

After all, it's just a game.


What Mark writes above is exactly what my organization is trying to convey. This is only a game and that there is a lot more going on out there than basketball. The flag vendor we are purchasing the flags from is donating 100% of the profits from the sales to the relief fund for the victims of September 11, 2001. Our board felt that the flag stands for a lot of different things to a lot of different people. However, a vote of membership present at the time showed unanimous support for the relief effort and for the purchase. For the majority of members that I personally spoke to, the flag was a way of honoring the victims and heroes of that day as well as showing support for our nation.

[rockyroad]

Walter, you said your board was requiring the flags to be worn?? So if an official chooses not to, does that official lose games? Pay a fine? What is the "punishment" for not wearing the flag, and - as Juulie is asking - should there even BE a punishment for not wearing the flag?

dj

[walter]

Interesting question. We put the issue to a vote of the membership and no one objected but we did have some no shows at the meeting. What will happen, in actuality, probably nothing. The board is purchasing the flags (2 per person) and is asking that the flags be sewn on the uniform 1" below the neckline. We've also been told that a number of schools are also taking this approach. Hopefully, we won't have to deal with it. In reality, if someone chooses not to wear the flag, so be it. I know there will be some of you out there that think that uniforms should be uniform. If someone chooses not to wear the flag, they need to know that their partner may be wearing a flag.

[walter]

Also what I meant by requiring had to do with the placement of the flag. The vote determined that the board would wear the patch. The requirement dealt with where it would be sewn.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Walter, you said your board was requiring the flags to be worn?? So if an official chooses not to, does that official lose games? Pay a fine? What is the "punishment" for not wearing the flag, and - as Juulie is asking - should there even BE a punishment for not wearing the flag?

dj

I don't think there's anyone out there who doesn't agree that an association can adopt and enforce a dress code for it's members while those members are representing that association at a game. Let me ask you this - what is the penalty for wearing white shoes, or shorts, or a collared shirt instead of a v-neck (for example) or an association patch? Now, you may think that requiring a flag patch is different. But, is it really?

You may argue that dress code requirements are based on looking "professional" (whatever that is). A big part of that is being dressed the same as your partner(s) and other association members. If your association decides that adding a flag patch increases your appearance of professionalism (OK, that's a stretch, but what constitutes "professionalism" is totally subjective), then they are basing their code on that same principle - the principle of dressing to represent the association in the manner in which that association has determined it wants to be represented. That's their right, and the majority rules.

Again, you may make a case that their rules violate your constitutional right to choose not to participate in what you perceive as a political statement (or for whatever reason, perhaps religious).

To that I say - have fun at the Supreme Court.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have been reading the posts about US flags on our officiating uniforms. The first thing that we all should be doing is to read United States Code Title 36, also known as the Flag Code, specically Chapter 10, Section 176(j).

This section states that "no part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.

Since, athletic teams and officiating organizations are not patriotic organizations, we should not be wearing flag patches on our officiationg uniforms nor should athletic teams be wearing flag patches on their uniforms.

This has nothing about being patriotic or unpatriotic. I just do not think that it is appropriate to wear the flag in such a manner and I think that Flag Code backs up my belief.

[BktBallRef]

I've read the same thing. However, it's happening everywhere. MLB on the back of their jerseys, NCAA & NFL football teams with a flag on their helmet, and professional officials displaying the flag on their uniform.

It just seems to me that displaying the flag on a uniform simply expresses support for each other, our country and the men and women who have died during these tragic events. As an American, I feel I have as much right to diisplay the flag as somone else does to burn it. As long as it's done with dignity and respect, there's nothing improper about it. To try to read political or legal implications into to it is simply overbearing.

That's just my opinion. No need to agree or disagree.

[JRutledge]

Illinois has given us an option to buy wrist bands with the colors or a flag (I have not gotten the actual form myself yet) on it to where for basketball games. So we are not instructed to have a flag on our uniform or the colors, but on our wrist.