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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 04:25am
PYRef
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Smile Some Clarifications

I'm a new, first year ref. I have a few years experience in coaching youth basketball and this year I will be officiating at the 7/8 grade level. I have found these forums to be extremely informative and just reading them has answered some questions for me.
In preparation, I've done a lot of reviewing of the NFHS Officials manual (which apparently a lot of officials here haven't read) and the NFHS rules. Any assistance from you experienced refs on these would be great.

1. A1 & B1 jump ball to start the game, both go up and tip the ball and B1 subsequently catches the tip and passes off to a teammate. Isn't this a violation under 6-3-7c which states neither jumper shall catch the ball? Shouldn't Team A have a throw-in OOB nearest the violation? The ref ignored me when I asked.

2. Several of the refs here call a "reach" for everything from a hold to an illegal use of hands. Somehow I don't ever recall seeing a reach listed in the rules as a violation. Is this normal protocol at this level? Isn't there a better terminology that could be used?

Lastly,
3. Could someone clarify exactly what a hand-check is as opposed to an illegal use of hands and when it would be called (and how?) Would this be a "reach"?

Sorry for the long-winded question. I appreciate any help. I'm sure I'll be posting here more often.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 04:39am
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1. Violation if the ball didn't hit the floor or touch one of the non-jumpers before B1 catches it.

2. Reach is not a valid officating term in basketball.

3. Hand check and illegal use of the hands, same thing. Remember to use hand check signal when calling a hand check.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 04:47am
PYRef
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I was pretty sure of the first two, but what would be the difference in 3?
There are different signals for an Illegal use of hands and a Hand check.

Could you give me two caseplay examples where you would call one over the other?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 05:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRef
There are different signals for an Illegal use of hands and a Hand check.
No there isn't, same thing, same signal. You could use the 2 hand push signal with the illegal use of the hands call or the hand check signal.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 05:31am
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Welcome to the forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRef
I'm a new, first year ref. I have a few years experience in coaching youth basketball and this year I will be officiating at the 7/8 grade level. I have found these forums to be extremely informative and just reading them has answered some questions for me.
In preparation, I've done a lot of reviewing of the NFHS Officials manual (which apparently a lot of officials here haven't read) and the NFHS rules. Any assistance from you experienced refs on these would be great.

1. A1 & B1 jump ball to start the game, both go up and tip the ball and B1 subsequently catches the tip and passes off to a teammate. Isn't this a violation under 6-3-7c which states neither jumper shall catch the ball? Shouldn't Team A have a throw-in OOB nearest the violation? The ref ignored me when I asked.

2. Several of the refs here call a "reach" for everything from a hold to an illegal use of hands. Somehow I don't ever recall seeing a reach listed in the rules as a violation. Is this normal protocol at this level? Isn't there a better terminology that could be used?
Let me say first things first. If you are coaching and these things happen, it is unlikely that you will see many officials at the 7 and 8 grade levels that are very good or very experienced. It just is not a fact of life. These are the levels that many officials start out at or end their careers doing these levels. You will not see the cream of the crop very often if at all. So you need to keep this in mind when you watch officials at this level work. Now I know someone will try to say that they are the best official in their area and they work all the little kids’ games they can. That might be true in some rare cases, but most people have other things to do than work those games over a HS or college game that is available on the same night. So you are seeing officials that either is not very experienced or they cannot advance to other levels often because they are not very good. This is probably why you experienced #1 and #2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRef
Lastly,
3. Could someone clarify exactly what a hand-check is as opposed to an illegal use of hands and when it would be called (and how?) Would this be a "reach"?
A hand-check is something largely involving the ball handler and usually people will call a hand-check when the dribbler is involved. Illegal use of hands is just what it sounds like, Illegal use of hands. The hand-checking signal was put in to clarify a certain kind of act and to give more clarification to what the defender really did. You by definition really cannot have a hand-check by an offensive player or ball handler against the defensive player. It is really not that big of a deal, you use the signal to clarify what happen. It comes down to some personal choice when and how you use these signals. It is kind of like telling a story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PYRef
Sorry for the long-winded question. I appreciate any help. I'm sure I'll be posting here more often.
You obviously are new to this forum.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 07:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
No there isn't, same thing, same signal. You could use the 2 hand push signal with the illegal use of the hands call or the hand check signal.
Lah me, I know that you're not an official and that you don't own a rule book, but the SIGNALS can be found on-line if you look, even though the NFHS rules aren't.

They are NOT the same thing, same signal, TrollBoy.

Signal #28 is ILLEGAL USE OF HAND. Signal #29 is HAND CHECK.They are two completely different signals used for two completely different types of acts. And the "2 hand push signal" is NEITHER! That's a completely different signal- #32 PUSHING OR CHARGING- and that signal is NEVER used in conjunction with the other signals.

As usual, you are un-freaking-believable....
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 08:21am
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So illegal use of the hands is what we call a HIT when reporting in college. Sorry, I was wrong and stand corrected by the almightly king of the rulebook, JR. You are the best my man....
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 08:30am
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Thanks Rutledge and Jurassic. I knew I was right on that one because I've looked at them a million times. That's partly what prompted my question in the first place.
I think I have a clearer picture of the difference now.

Believe it or not, some of these officials also do the JV games. It is pretty hard to watch. Unfortunately, the NFHS Officials manual is apparently not mandatory reading for them.

Last edited by PYRef; Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 08:33am.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 08:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
So illegal use of the hands is what we call a HIT when reporting in college.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!!
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 11:12am
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Just my two cents on the handcheck vs. illegal use of hands. A handcheck is just one form of illegal use of hands. It's using the hand(s) illegally, usually to impede or redirect the dribbler.

Putting two hands on the dribbler is considered an "automatic" handcheck by many officials. Reaching out to slow down the dribbler on the way to the basket would also be a pretty clear handcheck.

Slapping a player while trying to make a steal would be illegal use of hands, but clearly not a handcheck. Also, contacting the shooter's arm while trying to block the shot would be illegal use of hands.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2006, 11:18am
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I am also a rookie in my first year, and this has confused me as well, since there is nothing in the RULES that I can find that explains the difference in the use of these signals.

To check my understanding of your responses:
-Signal 29 (hand check) is a more specific call, used mainly (or exclusively?) when a defender reaches in (pardon the use of the words) and makes contact with the dribbler
-If in doubt, I assume it would be safe to use Signal 28?


Thanks to everyone!
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