NCAA Emphasis on palming/carrying

[bearclause]

I was a little bit surprised that a player I watched was called about five times for carries on several high dribbles over his shoulder. Some seemed legit, but there were other times where he seemed guilty of nothing other than dribbling it high with his hand on top of the ball at all times. I don't really understand how this is being enforced. Here's the text from the 2007 NCAA rulebook:

Palming (Illegal Dribble)

Although steps were taken to control palming in the 2005-06 basketball season, additional attention needs to be directed in eliminating the illegal maneuver of “palming the ball” from our game. “Palming” or “carrying” the ball places the defensive player at a distinct disadvantage while according the dribbler a sizeable advantage inconsistent with the spirit and intent of the rules. The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes or pulls the ball either to the side or in front of him commits an indefensible violation which must be called.

“Palming” is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the
dribblers’ hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.

And Rule 4 - Section 18 - Article 4:

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:

a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands;

b. The dribbler touches the ball with both hands simultaneously;

c. An opponent bats the ball; or

d. The ball becomes dead.

A.R. 77. A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to keep a hand in contact with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains such control as the ball descends, pushing it to the playing court at the last moment; however, after six or seven bounces, A1’s hands are in contact with the ball and the palm of the hand on this particular dribble is skyward. RULING: Violation. The ball has come to rest on the hand while the palm and the fingers are facing upward, so the dribble has ended. When the player continues to move or stand still and dribble, the player has committed a violation by dribbling a second time. (See Rule 9-7.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

I was a little bit surprised that a player I watched was called about five times for carries on several high dribbles over his shoulder. Some seemed legit, but there were other times where he seemed guilty of nothing other than dribbling it high with his hand on top of the ball at all times. I don't really understand how this is being enforced.

It's being enforced by competent, knowledgable officials. Would you be equally surpised if it was called on a player on the other team? You know...the one that you aren't a fan of?

Geeze, we usually don't get the fanboys here until March.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's being enforced by competent, knowledgable officials. Would you be equally surpised if it was called on a player on the other team? You know...the one that you aren't a fan of?

Geeze, we usually don't get the fanboys here until March.

I admit this kid has a high dribble at times. However - there were a couple of times where he clearly keeps his hand on top the ball but dribbles it above his shoulder level and a ref signals a carry. One particular time, he continues his dribble behind and above his shoulder, but his hand is no more than maybe 60 degrees from top dead center and nowhere near facing "skyward" as stated in the NCAA rulebook. For those who want to give a real answer - is that a carry?

I'm just curious what's with the insult rather than a straight answer. We've got people are convinced that the new NCAA emphasis is that dribbling above shoulder-level is illegal. It's a fairly simple question. I suppose you've never watched a game on TV and started wondering what a ref was calling because it didn't seem to reflect the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bearclause

I admit this kid has a high dribble at times. However - there were a couple of times where he clearly keeps his hand on top the ball but dribbles it above his shoulder level and a ref signals a carry. One particular time, he continues his dribble behind and above his shoulder, but his hand is no more than maybe 60 degrees from top dead center and nowhere near facing "skyward" as stated in the NCAA rulebook. For those who want to give a real answer - is that a carry?

I'm just curious what's with the insult rather than a straight answer. We've got people are convinced that the new NCAA emphasis is that dribbling above shoulder-level is illegal. It's a fairly simple question. I suppose you've never watched a game on TV and started wondering what a ref was calling because it didn't seem to reflect the rules.

I will give you a very straight answer. I have no idea what was called because I was not there. The officials on the game were standing only a few feet from a play and you should ask them. I have no idea why a carry call was made against your player without seeing what he or she did in person. You might think they called a violation for one thing and they called it for something entirely different. What you think is clear, might not be so clear to the people who get paid the big bucks to make that call.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

I'm just curious what's with the insult rather than a straight answer. We've got people are convinced that the new NCAA emphasis is that dribbling above shoulder-level is illegal. It's a fairly simple question. I suppose you've never watched a game on TV and started wondering what a ref was calling because it didn't seem to reflect the rules.

Insult? Moi? Never!

Let me take a wild guess though, bearclause....

You're an Auburn fan and one of your players got called for multi palming violations in your last game.

Am I close? Be honest now.

And, kidding aside, officials don't screw up multi palming violations at that level. They all know the difference between a high dribble and a carry. If they don't, they sureashell don't last long. You can take that to the bank.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Insult? Moi? Never!

Let me take a wild guess though, bearclause....

You're an Auburn fan and one of your players got called for multi palming violations in your last game.

Am I close? Be honest now.

And, kidding aside, officials don't screw up multi palming violations at that level. They all know the difference between a high dribble and a carry. If they don't, they sureashell don't last long. You can take that to the bank.

No. Cal fan. Great Alaska Shootout final against Loyola Marymount. Jerome Randle got called several times. Once it looked like he picked up his dribble. Another time (8:08 left) it looks like he's dribbling high and above the shoulder. I don't dispute that he did get a legit carry (some were closer than others) called a couple of times and may have been trying to test the refs.

Regardless of whether or not the refs might have judged an actual carry, I just wanted to know if a high-dribble (above the shoulder) is by definition considered carrying under the new emphasis. I'm having a discussion with people who are convinced that how high the dribble is may be enough (by itself) to call a carry.

It also seems that many refs are just adjusting to the new emphasis at the beginning of the season. I'm pretty sure that some crews are calling it tighter than others.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bearclause

I admit this kid has a high dribble at times. However - there were a couple of times where he clearly keeps his hand on top the ball but dribbles it above his shoulder level and a ref signals a carry. One particular time, he continues his dribble behind and above his shoulder, but his hand is no more than maybe 60 degrees from top dead center and nowhere near facing "skyward" as stated in the NCAA rulebook. For those who want to give a real answer - is that a carry?

In citing everything above from the NCAA book, bearclause, you left the following out:

-- From the Points of Emphasis at the front of this year's NCAA rulebook --"The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes or pulls the ball to either side or in front of him commits an in indefensible violation which MUST be called".

That's why the player got called for it. The NCAA rulesmakers want all of their officials to look for it and call it. That player is gonna continue to get called for it too until he stops doing it.

On the e-officials web site, there is an excellent video showing how the play should be called.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

-- From the Points of Emphasis at the front of this year's NCAA rulebook --"The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes or pulls the ball to either side or in front of him commits an in indefensible violation which MUST be called".

The NCAA rulesmakers want all of their officials to look for it and call it.

Not a minute too soon.

[refnrev]

I wish that palming and carrying were more of an emphasis in FED. Each year the players seem to get by with more and more. I've seen some girls with palms facing the celing and the ball almost coming to rest. I have to admit I don't call the carry as often as I used to.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by refnrev

I wish that palming and carrying were more of an emphasis in FED. Each year the players seem to get by with more and more. I've seen some girls with palms facing the celing and the ball almost coming to rest. I have to admit I don't call the carry as often as I used to.

Certainly I can tell when there's a blatant carry, and it upset me to no end when NBA star players would get away with it. Once I was just shooting around a basketball at a playground, and these kids were emulating a Jordan crossover where they'd just scoop the ball under their hands repeatedly. Try telling a bunch of kids that Michael Jordan gets away with an illegal move. I once sat in the 3rd row of a D-I college game and could hear everything the refs were saying. There was one particular player who liked to bring his hand over the top of the ball when walking it up, but otherwise never did when pressured by a defender. However - he did get called once, and I heard the ref yell, "Carry! Big time!" The sense I got was that they were telling him it was OK if he didn't get an advantage, but this time his hand went through 270 degrees of the ball.

I'd certainly like to understand what's the difference between a legal move and an illegal one. I'm not a subscriber to the services mentioned, so I don't have access to the video described. However - I'm just trying to get a handle on what the following would be:

1) A player dribbles a ball way over the head, but the hand is directly on top of the ball and the upward/downward dribble is always in a fluid motion that's relatively straight.

2) A player is running faster than the momentum of the ball and continues the dribble by bringing the ball above and behind his shoulder with the hand above 90 degrees from the top of the ball.

3) The "hesitation" move that's specified in the 2007 NCAA rulebook emphasis. It sounds like they're referring to things like where a player might dribble the ball high, and continue the downward dribble motion with several direction changes during the same downward motion.

My problem with the refs is that I'm looking at other games, and there are players who are dribbling the ball borderline supporting the weight of the ball, and I don't see calls. I question some of the calls because I never saw the ball "coming to rest" or being supported by the hand.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refnrev

I wish that palming and carrying were more of an emphasis in FED. Each year the players seem to get by with more and more. I've seen some girls with palms facing the celing and the ball almost coming to rest. I have to admit I don't call the carry as often as I used to.

Why do you need an emphasis to make the call? If you have an obvious violation, then call it. POE is for people who are not calling something properly. Also the POE is not going to mean anything if the people that do the hiring get upset at officials for making these types of calls.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Certainly I can tell when there's a blatant carry, and it upset me to no end when NBA star players would get away with it. Once I was just shooting around a basketball at a playground, and these kids were emulating a Jordan crossover where they'd just scoop the ball under their hands repeatedly. Try telling a bunch of kids that Michael Jordan gets away with an illegal move. I once sat in the 3rd row of a D-I college game and could hear everything the refs were saying. There was one particular player who liked to bring his hand over the top of the ball when walking it up, but otherwise never did when pressured by a defender. However - he did get called once, and I heard the ref yell, "Carry! Big time!" The sense I got was that they were telling him it was OK if he didn't get an advantage, but this time his hand went through 270 degrees of the ball.

Who cares what the NBA does? That is a different level and different level of expectation. Comparing the NBA to NCAA is not a very good example. If players do not know the difference between the NCAA or NBA that is their fault.

Originally Posted by bearclause

I'd certainly like to understand what's the difference between a legal move and an illegal one. I'm not a subscriber to the services mentioned, so I don't have access to the video described. However - I'm just trying to get a handle on what the following would be:

3) The "hesitation" move that's specified in the 2007 NCAA rulebook emphasis. It sounds like they're referring to things like where a player might dribble the ball high, and continue the downward dribble motion with several direction changes during the same downward motion.

From my point of view you are really not making much sense. I was at an NCAA Officiating Clinic that the NCAA puts on all over the country and are a requirement for every D1 official to attend and I heard Hank Nichols talk about this rule in great detail and how it was to be called. What you described makes no sense to what was said and I really do not know what part of the NCAA rulebook you are trying to read. It is also clear you do not know a lot about officiating either.

Originally Posted by bearclause

My problem with the refs is that I'm looking at other games, and there are players who are dribbling the ball borderline supporting the weight of the ball, and I don't see calls. I question some of the calls because I never saw the ball "coming to rest" or being supported by the hand.

Here is the thing big guy. Division 1 officials are scrutinized on everything they do. If they call things that are not there, they will be fined, suspended or fired. If you know so much about what they call, then I suggest you pay the money, go to an officiating camp at the D1 level and pay around $500 just to attend the camp. Of course you will have to pay the travel expenses which for many involve a plane flight or a 7-10 hour drive depending on which camp you attend. Then pay for your hotel expenses and food for the 2-4 days you are away from home. After you do all of that and get hired (you will likely have to do this for years to even sniff a real change of being hired), then come talk to us about what should or should not be called on a palming call. It is easy to call the game from the cheap seats while watching a game. It is quite another to thing to call this while actually officiating a game.

Peace

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who cares what the NBA does? That is a different level and different level of expectation. Comparing the NBA to NCAA is not a very good example. If players do not know the difference between the NCAA or NBA that is their fault.

I'm just thinking the first time those kids try out that move in junior high or high school, they'll be sorely disappointed. I understand the NBA rule is essentially the same, but the enforcement is not.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

From my point of view you are really not making much sense. I was at an NCAA Officiating Clinic that the NCAA puts on all over the country and are a requirement for every D1 official to attend and I heard Hank Nichols talk about this rule in great detail and how it was to be called. What you described makes no sense to what was said and I really do not know what part of the NCAA rulebook you are trying to read. It is also clear you do not know a lot about officiating either.

Then maybe you can help. It sounds like a simple rule. One can't let ball come to rest on the hand while dribbling. However - this "point of emphasis" in the NCAA rulebook is making a lot of people who watch the games suspicious that it's meant to outlaw any dribbling motion above the shoulder level. That's really the one thing I want to know. Can a player (NCAA) dribble the ball above the shoulder or head legally?

Is this really some secret society with some secret handshake? I understand it does take a lot of experience and training to learn everything and to perform it well at a high level. However - I love volleyball, and I know any number of refs who are perfectly willing to explain to the fan otherwise obscure points to the rulebook.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Can a player (NCAA) dribble the ball above the shoulder or head legally?

yes

Is this really some secret society with some secret handshake?

maybe

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bearclause

Is this really some secret society with some secret handshake?

We're not at liberty to answer this question. You'll need to address this one to the Grand Zebra at his private email account.