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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 03:46pm
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I know this is something that has probably been discussed a lot on this board, but I'm new here, so bear with me...
I'm a two year official, mostly rec ball so far. The more I step on the court, the harder I find for my calls to be consistent, whereas in baseball (which I've been doing for five years) I find it much easier. One thing that doesn't help is the palm/carry/travelling calls. I keep hearing from coaches and parents stuff like, "no one calls that anymore." My question for all of you is: when do you call it, if you do, and what can we do as officials to keep these calls consistent. Thanks. ---Darryl 
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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 04:13pm
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I only call it if the hand is directly underneath the ball. I know the kids now days dribble from the back side and then over but it's legal. Also from the sound of your post is they might be screaming about a ball bounced above the dribblers head...again it's legal...
My advise is to tell the coaches and parents to grab the rule book and show you where its illegal.. hope this helps
__________________
"Do I smell the revolting stench of self-esteem?" Mr. Marks (John Lovitz, in The Producers)
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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 04:40pm
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Quote:
First of all, welcome to the board. We are a motley crew, but we manage to keep improving our reffing skills, by discussing and debating various things, and advising each other about what works. My advice with regard to your question would be to talk to the person who assigns you to your games. That person will know which rules should be enforced, and how strictly you are to gauge the palming. Don't give a lot of credence to coaches, unless you know them to be well-versed in the rules. And just because THEY say so, isn't a good indicator. Ask your assignor who you should watch, and then go to a couple of their games, and see what they call and what they pass. Most of all, keep striving to improve. That is always the way to feel confident.
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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 05:28pm
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A few things to look for
On calls like this, look for advadtage/disadvantage. For example a guard out past the top of the key with no one closely guarding him my be dribbling with a slight carry.
However, some guards will try to change the direction of the ball while dribbling it when being guarded. If the ball rests in his palm, it is illegal. Some of these summer sports like And One have really made this more difficult as now players are seeing this on the tele and see an official watching and not calling some very obvious calls. At the begining of the season it might be a good idea to review this with the captains during the pregame. Best of luck with your season and welcome to the forum. There are a lot of really good people here with a lot of experience. Don't be afraid to respond to something and be wrong. They will correct you and you will learn from it. I know I have.
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Damain
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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 10:46pm
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Thank you for your generous responses and advice. I can't tell you how much it is appreciated. Does anyone know if they are more strict on traveling/palming/carrying in the European leagues? Thanks again, and I'll be sure to stop by often. ---Darryl
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Mon Nov 03, 2003, 11:01pm
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I presume you are refering to the FIBA rules and again it is a question of advantage disadvantage.If a person carries the ball to get around a person who is legally playing defense."It is a violation" You can however warn the offense if you see him doing it in the open (Preventative Officiating) .
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 08:48am
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Why do you think the 10-panel ball will become a problem. The official ball of YBOA is the 10-panel ball (by Rawlings if my memory is correct), and it was used in both its boys' and girls' national championships this past summer, and I did not find it to be a problem, except that it looked different from what we have been used to since almost the dawn of basketball.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 11:10am
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Very well put, Damian. I agree with the point of advantage/disadvantage. If the dribbler is not doing much, chances are I let it go. However, if he uses his questionable dribble to beat a defender, in this situation I call the carry.
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 11:19am
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Agreed Mark. I also think that AAU has switched to the 10-panel ball - I have not seen a change in dribbling/palming.
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 01:39pm
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Catchin' crap
I must admit I generally catch a little crap when I make a carry call... I tend to believe that it is not because the call is wrong but it is because very few others in my association call it.
There are dribblers/guards that technically carry the ball with nearly every single dribble. Coming down the court all alone, no defense, and he's palming the ball - you can't call that. I feel it has got to be based on the Tower philosophy of advantage disadavantage. If the dribbler, in the act of an offensive drive around a properly positioned defender, commits a carry, I call it. The easy one for me is the move my JV basketball coach taught me 25 years ago. The dribbler with the ball well out to the right side of his body, facing the defender, catches a dribble that is coming straight up from the floor and then spins his body on his left foot, and now pushes the ball stright back down to the floor, pivots now on the right foot, and continues with a legal dribble into the left hand. That 4 to 8 foot horizontal movement of the ball made on the initial spin requires that the ball was caught and carried. VIOLATION! Horizontal movement of the ball cannot just suddenly end - the laws of physics and momentum don't allow it, UNLESS the ball has been caught and carried. The other very common violation is the NBA pause cross-over thingamabob. Dibbler is coming fast near the 3-point line and the dribbler pauses with the ball at the upper most position as the dribbler appears that he is going to stop or pass, defender comes up quickly to defend these possible actions only to have the dribbler now cross-over and continue his dribble leaving the defender behind. This one requires concentration because it is not the body motion (the appearance of I'm going to stop or pass) that creates the carry it is the hand and its position on the ball. Is the ball caught? - and generally you will see the hand go from a position of on top of the ball to one nearly completely underneath the ball, and then back to one on the side of the ball to initiate the cross-over dribble. That pause is the time to see what goes on with the hand and the ball. Likely, it is another violation. The allowances that we see on TV... I want to say have trickled down to high school but it has come much faster than a trickle. To date I'm sticking to my guns and calling the carry. Howl all you want, Monkey. 
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 03:28pm
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Howwwwl
I will start by saying I have to see what you are seing to determine if it is or is not a violation. However, you can do a really good hesitation move without moving your hand under the ball. Essentially, it is an optical illusion where you are cushioning the rise of the ball and making it appear to stop when it really cannot without you either gripping it from above or putting your hand under it (as you point out). It is similar to the illusion of hang time, which is also a physcial impossibility. People contort their bodies in such a way as to appear to hang in the air, but we know they rise and fall acoording to laws of gravity.
As for the spin move, it always starts with the dribbling hand (say the right for this case) pushing in a reverse direction with a simultaneous reverse pivot. I teach this move, and when done properly, there is absolutely no carry involved. The players that carry the most are those who don't get the good push with the right hand and change to the left hand behind the body. The left hand almost always carries the ball forward in this case, because the left hand is not properly postioned for the forward push and the body is already. As for the length of the movement, I teach my players to send the ball about 10-15 feet on what looks like a bounce pass initially to overemphasize the amount of movement you can legally get out of the initial reverse push by the right hand and to show the direction of ball movement I expect (about 45 degrees left and forward). Obviously they can't continue their dribble, but that isn't the point of this demonstration  But it makes the point that you can redirect the ball to the other side of your body and forward with one good (and legal) push of the ball. 4-8 feet is what I would want out of the move so that the player doesn't stop during the spin move. This amount of movement should be a dribble, not a carry of the ball. If they keep the ball in the air for the 4-8 feet, it would be a carry.
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Wed Nov 05, 2003, 03:37pm
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Exactly!
Some things can be done legally. Unless I'm missing something you have said, I think we're on the same page Coach.
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Fri Nov 07, 2003, 08:30am
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Quote:
I have only ever seen one. I can palm an 8-panel ball, but just not very well. I could hold this 10-panel thing like I had stick-um on my hands. Secondly, the way they advertise it. Better grip, Better control, etc. We are going to have guards doing a lot more with the ball now if their hands can hold onto it better.
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Fri Nov 07, 2003, 09:11am
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Re: Catchin' crap
Quote:
That way the bench has a clear view and the smarter coaches will see clearly that my crew will be looking for it. That call usually catches the crap, but for the rest of the game we are usually uncontested on it. It is a method that works for me and my partners and is something we cover in our pregame.
__________________
ISF ASA/USA Elite NIF
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