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Old Wed Nov 08, 2000, 06:10pm
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For those of you who have already started your season, or are have just begun, would you be so kind as to email me about your experiences regarding enforcement?

1. Is there a lot of palming?
2. Does its occurence change as the game goes along, i.e., do the players adapt as they should?
3. Are there a lot of whistles?
4. Do you continue to enforce the rule all throughout the game, or do you change your emphasis later in the game?
5. Do you only call palming when the dribbler beats the defense, or do you call it when you see it (similar to traveling)?

Please tell me what you actually do, not what you THINK should be done.

Thanks for your input.
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Old Wed Nov 08, 2000, 06:29pm
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Palming the ball happens. Probably more in the boys/mens game, but also in girls/women. You have to call it when you see it - although if it happens in the backcourt with no defensive pressure and no advantage gained you might not choose to notice.

In my experience, once you call it, sometimes only once, the players adjust to it. Be sure it is a carry, consider advantage gained, and make the call (or not).

Many times a player will get close to carrying, but the ball never actually comes to a rest, and you don't want to call it unless it is a violation. Similar to travelling, if you don't know, don't blow!

By the way, call it the same from the start to the end. If it's a carry in the first couple of minutes, its a carry in the last 10 seconds too!
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Old Wed Nov 08, 2000, 11:34pm
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The crew I work with calls it the same all game long. The problem is not what we call but the coachs who dont want it called at all. Or traveling for that matter.
If we call it the same from start to finish then we are doing our job. Like I said, its not us its the coachs who dont want to teach players how to dribble and the players who wont learn how to dribble.
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Old Thu Nov 09, 2000, 09:51am
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If a defender has legal guarding position on the dribbler,
and the dribbler is using it to beat the defender (backcourt or frontcourt), I will call it. If the dribbler has noone near him, I may verbally warn him (if I am close enough that he only can hear me). Otherwise, after the ball becomes dead, I may go over to him or his coach and tell them. If the coach is smart, he will relay it to the player, and this could possibly avert a problem later in the game. I have found that some, alright most, will keep doing it!!! (stubbon litle buggers!!!) Just remember if they force you to call it, CALL IT!!!
Go back to your playing days, and remember when someone did it against you. Were you upset when you were working hard playing defense and then all of a sudden they blew by you.
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Old Thu Nov 09, 2000, 09:59am
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I know this is going to throw gas on a fire but...

I didn't read anything about advantage?disadvantage in the rule book when it relates to palming. If a player double dribbles 10 feet from everyone we are going to call it (if we see it). I feel the same way with palming. I have always called it, and I have taken some serious grief over the last year or two because of it. I jumped up and down when I saw it as a POE. It is hard to determine and call sometimes, but we shouldn't call it only when they are beating a defender.

The one thing I am not looking forward to (I have not worked any games yet this year)is coaches harping on anything that even resembles plaming because it is a POE this year.
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Old Thu Nov 09, 2000, 10:01am
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Palming/carrying

I was taught this way, if the dribbler's thumb goes past verticle it's a carry. It is near impossible to have the ball come to rest if you follow this concept. I agree with
above on if it happens in backcourt with noone around I may choose to verbally warn the player. Otherwise if it happens call it regardless of when in the game it occurs.

Have fun Suppref
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Old Fri Nov 10, 2000, 09:08am
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I had it called just a couple of weeks back when my player was just standing over half court with a lazy dribble waiting for the offense to set up. She gets sloppy with the ball at times, and I try to work with her on this. Not the ref's fault, it's the player's issue. Call it when and where it happens and they'll stop doing it. It helps me if the refs call it the way I tell my players in practice that it's going to be called.

Dr. C - like my lazy dribbler, these habits are hard to break. If everyone calls it, it will stop. But if they only get it called in one game, they can't break years of bad habits.
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Old Fri Nov 10, 2000, 09:17am
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I had it called just a couple of weeks back when my player was just standing over half court with a lazy dribble waiting for the offense to set up. She gets sloppy with the ball at times, and I try to work with her on this. Not the ref's fault, it's the player's issue. Call it when and where it happens and they'll stop doing it. It helps me if the refs call it the way I tell my players in practice that it's going to be called.

Dr. C - like my lazy dribbler, these habits are hard to break. If everyone calls it, it will stop. But if they only get it called in one game, they can't break years of bad habits.
Hawks Coach,
I agree, with a penalty for nonchalance the player will improve.
mick
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Old Fri Nov 10, 2000, 09:55am
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Palming

In the Rockets/Grizzlies game last night, at least 5 Palming calls were made. That must be a record for the NBA! I am guessing it is a point of emphasis for them this year.

The coaches got pretty agitated on each call. From what I could observe, the officials were demonstrating the hand going below the vertical when explaining the call. Most of the calls were made on drives to the basket, but one or two were made when the dribbler was moving laterally across the top of the key.

My philosophy is the closer the dribbler is to the basket the closer it needs to be called. In the backcourt or barely in the frontcourt, without pressure, if the ball comes to rest such that the player takes a step without dribbling, I'd make the call. Borderline palming can be "missed" in those situations.

But if there is pressure, particularly if the dribbler is in a position to make a move to the basket, it should be called tighter. I'd probably let the hand go noticeably beyond vertical, just so I am sure it is palming.

Pardon the pun, but palming (like hand-checking) is one of those things that of not called appropriately, can get "out of hand" at a crucial time in the game. If we call it early in "advantage" situations, the problem will go away.

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Old Fri Nov 10, 2000, 02:04pm
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Quote:
In the Rockets/Grizzlies game last night, at least 5 Palming calls were made. That must be a record for the NBA! I am guessing it is a point of emphasis for them this year.
It is a point of emphasis this year in the NBA. They are not only calling a "carry" when the hand on the ball goes past 90 degrees, but also calling the ball "coming to rest". There are ways that players can have the ball "come to rest" in their hand without necessarily going past a 90 degree angle - and it can give them a huge advantage.

We probably don't do a good enough job of calling this at the college or high school level either.
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Old Sun Nov 12, 2000, 03:23pm
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I agree with Bradley. I think this year's POE is designed to crack down on the so called "hestitation dribble" that we have let go previously. The Rule Chnage booklet that NASO and the NF published this year talked specifically about a player who goes up on his/her tiptoes and and hesitates with the ball. We have our state rules clinic tonight and I'm anxious to hear what Mr. Knox has to say on the subject.

As far as coaches are concerned, I have never heard a coach complain about a palming call as long as you call it at both ends and do it consistently.

UPDATE
At our state clinic tonight, Mr. Knox addressed the comment in the rule book that says, ""Palming" not only occurs while the palm is facing "skyward," but can also occur while the palm is facing the floor." The POE is referring to players who, for example, fakes to the right with a jump or on their tiptoes. The defender follows the fake because the dribble has ended when the ball comes to rest. The offensive player then pushes the ball acrossed his body and starts another dribble. Technically, the player has committed a double dribble, not a palming violation.

We all need to call this more consistently. This will never get cleaned up until we start calling it. It will only get worse.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 12th, 2000 at 10:48 PM]
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2000, 03:39pm
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I know of players that can hold the ball as they dribble.

On long "V" dribble and on spin moves ect.

Some of you must have seen this ?

The ball dose not come to rest but the dribble did come to a stop!
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:02pm
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Question Palming?

O.K., being an ex-coach of 18+ years and now as a second-year official, I have a question? Are we actually calling the hesitation dribble as palming? Or are we calling palming when the ball comes to rest in the hand of the offensive player when they physically control the ball with one hand?

My definition of the hesitation dribble was and still is, a dribble executed by the offensive player which helps him/her to change speeds. Nobody in their right mind is going to call palming simply because someone is changing speeds using the dribble.

In many cases, yes, this does mean the offensive player may rise from a control dribble stance (which is lower) to a speed dribble stance (which is more upright) and vice versa. But, simply rising or crouching in the dribble does not mean that one is palming the basketball.

I for one, cannot and will not call palming simply because the offensive player "rises up on their toes". IMO, the hesitation dribble executed properly is not palming. It is simply another technique used to improve offensive skill.

The only point I'm really trying to make here is that a player who "rises up on their toes" is not necessarily palming the basketball. And to call it based on whether the offense rises or crouches in the dribble is asking for trouble. Opinions?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:09pm
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Thumbs up tipee toes?

Pirate,
I do not disagree with what I think you said.
We should be watching the ball and not the tulips.
And, we shouldn't guess that call.
mick
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Old Wed Nov 15, 2000, 12:24am
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I am confused by the coming to rest concept. By definition, a ball that changes direction at some point is in a state of zero upward or downward motion. At this moment of change the ball is, however briefly, at rest. When it hits the floor, it bounces and has no real pause. But the dribble is not a bouncing motion off the hand, it involves control, a temporary stoppage of motion. At what point are you controlling the ball, and at what point have you crossed the line and allowed the ball to come to a state of rest? How do you as an official judge this? And what do fakes by the rest of the body have to do with this issue?
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