Carrying / Palming !#%¤!?

[Jökull]

I have read the thread "most misunderstood basketball rules" and I dont know excactly how to interpret rule nr.10 (palming or carrying the ball).

Some time ago this violation was defined by the hand beeing under the ball / the palm pointing towards the ceiling or by the hand exceeding 90 degrees angle when dribbling. But now this has been changed to "comes to rest in the player's hand".

My question is; how would you define the word "rest" in the players hand. Are the "old" definition still applicable?

I.E. if I do not dribble the ball with the hand under the ball or not exceeding 90 degrees angle, am I "safe" then?




(I hope this will not turn up as a "double-post as I tried to post this earlier without any noticable effect).

[BktBallRef]

The ball can come to rest in your hand without your hand being under the ball. That's why the rule has be rewritten.

[Jökull]

Ok.

"Palming or carrying is when a player gains an advantage when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand..."

Is it possible to define the "advantage" more precisely as to make it easier to make the call?









[Edited by Jökull on Sep 6th, 2005 at 08:59 PM]

[Junker]

If the offensive player gains an advantage (by the ball coming to a rest) to allow him or her to get past the defender, I call the carry. This call is very much advantage/disadvantage in my opinion.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jökull
Is it possible to define the "advantage" more precisely as to make it easier to make the call?

Advantage = He uses it to go around the defender.

[Jökull]

"Advantage = He uses it to go around the defender"

"If the offensive player gains an advantage (by the ball coming to a rest) to allow him or her to get past the defender"

As you have pointed out the "carrying" violation does no longer mean that the hand has to be under the ball.
So if the word "rest", which is used in the rulebook, does no longer apply to the hand beeing under the ball/ or 90 degrees angle, the word "rest" simply turns out to be a vague description for dribbling.
Conclusion = You are not allowed to make dribbling moves that gives you a certain advantage when getting pass the defender.

I still dont know where to draw the line. There are of course plenty of moves that aim of going around the defender. The moves in them selves give the ballhandler an advantage as he is able to use them to get pass the defender.
What moves are then allowed and which are not?

[Ref in PA]

In this type of forum, it is almost impossible to paint a picture of what the violation would be. This is a play that you have to see to call because it is a judgement call. I have seen refs call a play that other refs would let go. Each ref makes that decision in the moment the play happens. Most refs will not call a violation in the open floor with no pressure, but I have seen some refs call it.

I almost always call a carry if the offensive player does a double move - fake one way, fake the other, go back to the original direction - all while the ball is in contact with the hand. But again, you have to see the play because many single move fakes could be carries also. The palm does not have to be under the ball for it to come to rest in the hand.

[Jökull]

I agree it is hard to paint the exact pictures by using text. But there seems to be a need for it never the less. How can the players learn what is acceptable if the judges them selves disagree over the interpretation of the rules?

I would be thankful if you guys could try to give me more examples of when you consider a move to be a "carry".


Do you know if there are any videoclips downloadable from the net explaining basketball violations, fouls, etc.?

[ChuckElias]

I think there was a carry/travel video in the bunch that tomegun posted a while back, wasn't there? Tom?

[Junker]

Personally, if an offensive player has a hand behind or underneath the ball, it comes to a complete rest, and is able to get passed the defender, I make the call. Another thing I look at is where the offensive player is. If he or she is going side to side, there's not much advantage gained, however, if they are going to the basket, I make the call for sure because a large advantage is gained.

[Jökull]

"has a hand behind or underneath the ball"

I can understand that judges make the call if the ball is underneath the ball, because then it becomes really obvious that an advantage is gained.

But when you talk about "behind" the ball, are you referring to the hand beeing somewhat at an angle of 90 degrees? Would you still make the call if the hand is lets say 70 degrees?


ChuckElias suggested that there might be a "carry/travel" video in this forum somewhere. I cant get the search function to work - "disabled by administrator". Does anyone know where I might find this?

[Junker]

I think the travel video is available through the NFHS. As far as hand behind the ball, if they have a hand on the ball and it comes to a complete rest that you can see, and this gives them an advantage, I'm calling a carry. I suppose you could even call one with the hand on top of the ball if they have large enough hands to grab it and they really kept from dribbling the ball. I look at it more in terms of the ball's motion (stopped or not) than where the hand is (although the hand has to be on the ball to call the violation). I've never called one with the hand on top of the ball, but I suppose it could happen.

[assignmentmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The ball can come to rest in your hand without your hand being under the ball. That's why the rule has be rewritten.

physics consumers grasp that acceleration and deceleration of the ball are the royal road to grasping palming . . . Newton is said to have palmed the apple, or was that Eve?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally posted by assignmentmaker

physics consumers grasp that acceleration and deceleration of the ball are the royal road to grasping palming . . . Newton is said to have palmed the apple, or was that Eve?

Stop mixing apples and oranges.