another rules question

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by roadking

after a made basket by B1 ball hits floor and stays on inbounds side of boundry plain. A1 goes out bounds and reaches threw boundry plain and tips ball to inbound player A2. Is this a violation and what rule can you site if it is a violation.
thanks

NFHS 9-2-2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
NFHS 4-31 A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player.

but -

NFHS 4-9-1,2 Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.
The inside edges of these lines define the inbounds and out-of-bounds areas.

So was the ball ever actually out of bounds?

NFHS 4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Yes it was! So there is no violation here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

So was the ball ever actually out of bounds?

NFHS 4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.

Yes it was! So there is no violation here.

Despite the ball being in contact with the floor it seems that the ball should be considered out-of-bounds at the moment the OOB player touches it.

RULE4, SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 1 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.


Therefore, I wish to sidestep this issue and would support calling a violation on this throw-in play by pointing to 9-2-5 ". . . The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court."

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Despite the ball being in contact with the floor it seems that the ball should be considered out-of-bounds at the moment the OOB player touches it.

RULE4, SECTION 4 BALL LOCATION, AT DISPOSAL
ART. 1 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player (either player if the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt.
ART. 2 . . . A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the frontcourt if neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt.

7-1-2 . . . The ball is out of bounds when it touches or is touched by:
a. A player who is out of bounds.


Therefore, I wish to sidestep this issue and would support calling a violation on this throw-in play by pointing to 9-2-5 ". . . The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court."

I agree that the player is out of bounds, but it seems to me that the out of bounds status of the ball takes precedence over the backcourt status of the ball. There is no definition for "carry" in the Rule Book or anything in the Case Book that I can find that would help clarify, other than 4-15-4-b The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands , but I still can't think that that instant of the thrower tapping or pushing the ball can be construed as "carrying" the ball.

And since it doesn't seem to me that a ball can have both backcourt and out of bounds status at the same time, I don't see how even if you ruled the thrower's touch of the ball a carry, that the ball could somehow be both in the backcourt and out of bounds at the same time (during the time the thrower's hand is in contact with the ball).

Think of it this way: You don't call a backcourt violation when a sliding player, in contact with out of bounds, touches the ball in the backcourt near the sideline for what would have been a backcourt violation if the player had been in bounds -- you call out of bounds, don't you? -- Because the ball is now out of bounds - not in the backcourt, technically.

Or am I totally off on this?

[BktBallRef]

Backcourt has nothing to do with this situation. It's either inbounds or out of bounds. Forget about BC.

The original poster is not clear. If the ball is on the floor and the thrower pushes it to his teammate, it's a violation as the ball is inbounds and was never OOB. If the ball is not touching the floor, then the tocuh by the thrower is legal.

You guys are making this way harder than it should be.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If the ball is on the floor and the thrower pushes it to his teammate, it's a violation as the ball is inbounds and was never OOB.

I understand what you're saying, and both reason and the multitude of problems that I could see arising from the defense getting involved in the touching of this ball would lend to the common sense ruling of a violation, but doesn't NFHS 4-4-4 support the ball having out of bounds status during the touch by the thrower? A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location. How can you get around that? Throw-in provisions don't state that the ball must break the throw-in boundary line plane for the ball to legally be thrown in.

[Adam]

If the player were to pick the ball up while standing OOB and proceed to hold the ball while touching it to the floor in bounds; it's a violation. That's how you call the violation if he bats it off the floor to a teammate in lieu of picking it up and throwing it for a standard throw-in. Either the ball was never truly OOB, and you can call that violation, or the OOB player touched the floor in bounds with the ball during a throw-in and you have that violation.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the player were to pick the ball up while standing OOB and proceed to hold the ball while touching it to the floor in bounds; it's a violation.

I want to agree, but cite something to convince me.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Either the ball was never truly OOB,
and you can call that violation,

I don't see a grey area here, personally, for the status of the ball. The ball is either out of bounds or not out of bounds, not "kind-of out of bounds, but not enough for a legal throw-in to happen," by virtue of 4-4-4 and 7-1-2-a.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

or the OOB player touched the floor in bounds with the ball during a throw-in and you have that violation.

Again, as soon as I hear a citation to prove something to this effect, I'll concede. I'm just not there yet. I'm stuck on the stuff I've already cited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

I understand what you're saying, and both reason and the multitude of problems that I could see arising from the defense getting involved in the touching of this ball would lend to the common sense ruling of a violation, but doesn't NFHS 4-4-4 support the ball having out of bounds status during the touch by the thrower? A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location. How can you get around that? Throw-in provisions don't state that the ball must break the throw-in boundary line plane for the ball to legally be thrown in.

You get around it by reading all of the rule that you cited and picking out the article that is applicable. See 4-4-1--"A ball which is in contact with a player or with the court is in the backcourt if either the ball or the player is touching the backcourt". The "backcout" is in-bounds as per rules 1-1 and 4-13-2.If the thrower OOB now touches the ball on the court, it's a violation as per rule 9-2-2.

[BktBallRef]

9-2-5
The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.

While the thrower is OOB, he cannot touch the floor inbounds or touch the ball while it is touvhing the floor inbounds. Even though he's touching OOB, he cannot touch inbounds nor can the ball while he's touching/holding it. This is the principle of 9-2-5.

9.2.5 SITUATION: Thrower A1 inadvertently steps through the plane of the boundary line and touches the court inbounds. A1 immediately steps back into normal out-of-bounds throw-in position. The contact with the court was during a situation: (a) with; or (b) without defensive pressure on the throw-in team.
RULING: A violation in both (a) and (b). COMMENT: Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertent, it is a violation and no judgment is required in making the call.