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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 08:24am
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Correctable Error

Here is a "potentially weird" situation that almost happened to me last night. It was close game and the ball went out of bounds right by the table. The assistant coach of team A jumped up and called "time out". I did not say anything because it was the assistant, not the head coach. The Team A scorekeeper (visiting team) yelled to the bench that they were out of time outs. We played on with no problem. At the next stoppage of time the official scorekeepr told me that Team A still had one TO left. This got me thinking. If the head coach had called the TO and we thought it was their last and assessed a T (I know, this is an obvious error but sometimes I make some), and then after we shot the free throws the official scorer noticed the error and told us about it, would this be correctable under "awarding aunmerited free throw". Also, how would you re-start the play, at the point of interruption?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 11:08am
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This error doesn't fall into the category of "awarding an unmerited free throw." It falls into the category of a "bad call". Assessing a technical foul is a "call" and that can't be corrected. The free throws were merited based on the fact that the technical was assessed.

And I suppose that if the coach was the one who requested the correction, then you have to charge him a TO, and then assess him a T since he doesn't have any TO's left.

And you'll have to toss him when he screams about that one.

And you'll never work a tournament game in your life.

Last edited by rainmaker; Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:10am.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 11:12am
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Nope, not in the correctable error guidelines:
SECTION 10 CORRECTABLE ERRORS
ART. 1 . . . Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in:
a. Failure to award a merited free throw.
b. Awarding an unmerited free throw.
c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw.
d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket.
e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:30pm
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My vote is that this is a correctable error.

BTW what is with all of these threads about time-out tracking problems with the table on this forum lately?

And is anyone out there becoming convinced that the officials should mentally keep the time-outs and not leave this up to the table?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 12:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
My vote is that this is a correctable error.

BTW what is with all of these threads about time-out tracking problems with the table on this forum lately?

And is anyone out there becoming convinced that the officials should mentally keep the time-outs and not leave this up to the table?
Why wouldn't this fall under awarding. "unmerited free throw?" It would be no different if the table tells you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th.

I'm going correctable on this and canceling activity that happened prior to the recognition of an error. That would include the "T".

I'm sure this wouldn't happen this way. The official book already told the Op that the team had 1 TO left. If the official were to assess a T, the book would speak up as tot he discrepancy. That would cause the official to research the info to see where the discrepancy happened. However if one book has one thing and the other book has another and we were all as good as NEVA, our information would match up with one of the books. That would help validate the officials decision to make a change if warranted.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
My vote is that this is a correctable error.
And your vote counts for.....

how much percentage of determining the correct way to hand this?

I imagine it would be much, much easier to look at this as a correctable error, but I'm not sure you can. What rule reference allows you to cancel an assessed foul?

Gimlet, you said:

Why wouldn't this fall under awarding. "unmerited free throw?" It would be no different if the table tells you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th.

It IS different from the table telling you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th. The difference is that you called a foul when you shouldn't have. That's not on the list of correctable errors.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
And your vote counts for.....

how much percentage of determining the correct way to hand this?

I imagine it would be much, much easier to look at this as a correctable error, but I'm not sure you can. What rule reference allows you to cancel an assessed foul?

Gimlet, you said:

Why wouldn't this fall under awarding. "unmerited free throw?" It would be no different if the table tells you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th.

It IS different from the table telling you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th. The difference is that you called a foul when you shouldn't have. That's not on the list of correctable errors.
It's a book keeping errors. Book keeping errors can be corrected at any time with knowledge. Once you fix the book keeping error you can fix the umerited FT error within the proped time limits.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:39pm
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Yea, Dan! I change my vote. I'm voting with Dan.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
It's a book keeping errors. Book keeping errors can be corrected at any time with knowledge. Once you fix the book keeping error you can fix the umerited FT error within the proped time limits.
Assessing a technical foul is a bookkeeping error? Wow!
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
It IS different from the table telling you that the foul was the 7th when in fact it was the 6th. The difference is that you called a foul when you shouldn't have. That's not on the list of correctable errors.
The official book says they are out of time outs and we penelize with a "t" then they say no they did have one more. You mean you wouldn't correct this? There is no way I'm playing on without correcting this major of a mistake. I think that I can justify the correction in the book under the correctable error and book keeping mistake.

The point I was making that its a unmerited free throw which is correctable and the "T" is the activity that happened prior to the reconigtion of the error.

Dan Ref is correct in the fact that it is a book keeping error. Cancel the made FT's and give the ball back to the team that called a time out and play on.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Assessing a technical foul is a bookkeeping error? Wow!
You assessed a "T" because of a book keepiing error. First lets agree that if this scenerio happens that we wouldn't just take the word of the book. I would hope all of us would go and double check the book to make sure that the bookkeeper is looking @ it correctly.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
You assessed a "T" because of a book keepiing error. First lets agree that if this scenerio happens that we wouldn't just take the word of the book. I would hope all of us would go and double check the book to make sure that the bookkeeper is looking @ it correctly.
Okay, I'm confused. I thought we all agreed in the toher thread that it's up to the coach to keep track of the TO's and if the book errs, it's tough.

Also, are you saying that you thought this "correction" was during the same stoppage of play as the error? It looks like in the OP the realization of the mistake came later, after a certain amount of playing time.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Okay, I'm confused. I thought we all agreed in the toher thread that it's up to the coach to keep track of the TO's and if the book errs, it's tough.

Also, are you saying that you thought this "correction" was during the same stoppage of play as the error? It looks like in the OP the realization of the mistake came later, after a certain amount of playing time.
Quote:
At the next stoppage of time the official scorekeeper told me that Team A still had one TO left. This got me thinking. If the head coach had called the TO and we thought it was their last and assessed a T (I know, this is an obvious error but sometimes I make some), and then after we shot the free throws the official scorer noticed the error and told us about it, would this be correctable under "awarding unmerited free throw". Also, how would you re-start the play, at the point of interruption?
Yes it is up to the team to keep track of their own TO's. In the previous thread the book told them they had one when they didn't. In this case they called a TO that they thought they had. After the official grants the TO the book says they are out, the "T" is assessed, the B team shoots 2 throws, then the book tells the official that they did have a TO available. This all happened during one stoppage of play.

It is correctable because it was a unmerited free throw and the T happened prior to the recognition of the error.

There is no way that we can let this happen & play on. We assessed a penalty from bad information from the book. We have to correct. If a coach asks how? Explain, the correctable error rule and the bookkeeping mistake. W
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Yes it is up to the team to keep track of their own TO's. In the previous thread the book told them they had one when they didn't. In this case they called a TO that they thought they had. After the official grants the TO the book says they are out, the "T" is assessed, the B team shoots 2 throws, then the book tells the official that they did have a TO available. This all happened during one stoppage of play.

It is correctable because it was a unmerited free throw and the T happened prior to the recognition of the error.

There is no way that we can let this happen & play on. We assessed a penalty from bad information from the book. We have to correct. If a coach asks how? Explain, the correctable error rule and the bookkeeping mistake. W
Well, I see how you could do it this way in one stoppage of play. I mis understood the OP, and thought there had been some playing time between the FT and the discovery of the error. I agree with you about how to handle it in the one dead ball period instance. and give the TO, and then go from there.

But I still don't think it's a "correctable error."

What if there had been some playing time? Can I be right in that instance? Is it negotiable?
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2006, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Well, I see how you could do it this way in one stoppage of play. I mis understood the OP, and thought there had been some playing time between the FT and the discovery of the error. I agree with you about how to handle it in the one dead ball period instance. and give the TO, and then go from there.

But I still don't think it's a "correctable error."

What if there had been some playing time? Can I be right in that instance? Is it negotiable?
Once you accept that the book keeping error has occured then it's an easy and obvious step to agreeing an unmerited FT has been awarded. And this is one of the correctable errors that can be fixed if caught in time. If it's not caught in time then the FTs stand, but the coach gets another TO back.
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