Correctable Error

[just another ref]

I say drape the ol' 2-3 blanket over this one, because it does not exactly fit anywhere. It is not a true correctable error because the free throws were merited because a technical foul was called. This was a bookkeeping mistake which caused a technical foul. 2-11-11 does not say that all ripples caused by the bookkeeping mistake can be corrected as much as possible, but instances of it have been discussed, such as the player with 5 fouls who was discovered to only have 4 was allowed back in the game. With this in mind, I say when the mistake is discovered, the technical never happened, so take it and any points from free throws out of the book. If a team was awarded a possession improperly because of the (non) technical, that's just one we have to swallow. Furthermore, since this is a bookkeeping correction, this adjustment can be made any time up until approval of the final score.

[Nevadaref]

Let's put a concrete timeframe in here.
The team requests and is granted a time-out. The scorer informs you that this is an excessive time-out. (You never informed the coach that he was out of time-outs as the scorer never informed you.)
You charge the T and then the scorer reverses himself and states that it was in fact one of the team's allotted number after:
a. NO FTs have been attempted.
b. ONE FT has been attempted.
c. BOTH FTs have been attempted.
d. The ball has been placed at the disposal of the thrower for the opponent at the division line opposite the table.
e. The ensuing throw-in has been completed.
f. Team B travels on the ensuing possession.
g. The ball has been placed at the disposal of the thrower for Team A for the throw-in following the traveling violation.
h. Two minutes of clock time and several dead balls later.
i. After the final horn sounds to end the 4th quarter, but before the officials have left the visual confines of the gym.
j. The next day when you return to that gym to work another game, and after he has viewed the video tape of yesterday's game.

[tomegun]

If I go over to the table to make sure a coach is out of timeouts, call a technical foul and then they tell me the coach has one T the BS flag would be raised. Especially since this will be the home team. You take away a timeout from the visiting team and they will be screaming bloody murder which will cause everyone to triple check the book.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Once you accept that the book keeping error has occured then it's an easy and obvious step to agreeing an unmerited FT has been awarded. And this is one of the correctable errors that can be fixed if caught in time. If it's not caught in time then the FTs stand, but the coach gets another TO back.

Dan, did you forget your meds? That post doesn't make a lot of sense. It is either a bookkeeping mistake which can be fixed until the end of the officials jurisdiction or it is a correctable error which must be caught during the proper timeframe or it is neither one and just a horrible screwup that you have to live with. In any case, why would you give the team another time-out? Presumably, you already gave them the one that resulted in the technical foul being charged.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dan, did you forget your meds? That post doesn't make a lot of sense. It is either a bookkeeping mistake which can be fixed until the end of the officials jurisdiction or it is a correctable error which must be caught during the proper timeframe or it is neither one and just a horrible screwup that you have to live with. In any case, why would you give the team another time-out? Presumably, you already gave them the one that resulted in the technical foul being charged.

Tastes great...less filling...tastes great....less filling...

It's BOTH a book keeping error and a correctable error. The book keeping error led to unmerited FTs. The correctable error can be fixed if it's caught in time. (With me so far?)

If it's caught in time then the FT's come off, the coach got his TO and we play on, all is well. (Still with me?) If it's NOT fixed (ie caught too late) then the coach paid for that TO with a T. But now we find out that he has 1 more TO due to the book keeping error. He gets that one.

(Go ahead, fire away! I knew my last post would get *someone's* attention! )

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Let's put a concrete timeframe in here.
The team requests and is granted a time-out. The scorer informs you that this is an excessive time-out. (You never informed the coach that he was out of time-outs as the scorer never informed you.)
You charge the T and then the scorer reverses himself and states that it was in fact one of the team's allotted number after:
a. NO FTs have been attempted.
b. ONE FT has been attempted.
c. BOTH FTs have been attempted.
d. The ball has been placed at the disposal of the thrower for the opponent at the division line opposite the table.
e. The ensuing throw-in has been completed.
f. Team B travels on the ensuing possession.
g. The ball has been placed at the disposal of the thrower for Team A for the throw-in following the traveling violation.
h. Two minutes of clock time and several dead balls later.
i. After the final horn sounds to end the 4th quarter, but before the officials have left the visual confines of the gym.
j. The next day when you return to that gym to work another game, and after he has viewed the video tape of yesterday's game.

Great point. Accoring to the OP it has to be after your C. but I don't know which one.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Tastes great...less filling...tastes great....less filling...

It's BOTH a book keeping error and a correctable error. The book keeping error led to unmerited FTs. The correctable error can be fixed if it's caught in time. (With me so far?)

If it's caught in time then the FT's come off, the coach got his TO and we play on, all is well. (Still with me?) If it's NOT fixed (ie caught too late) then the coach paid for that TO with a T. But now we find out that he has 1 more TO due to the book keeping error. He gets that one.

(Go ahead, fire away! I knew my last post would get *someone's* attention! )

AGREED!!! TASTES GREAT!!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Tastes great...less filling...tastes great....less filling...

It's BOTH a book keeping error and a correctable error. The book keeping error led to unmerited FTs. The correctable error can be fixed if it's caught in time. (With me so far?)

If it's caught in time then the FT's come off, the coach got his TO and we play on, all is well. (Still with me?) If it's NOT fixed (ie caught too late) then the coach paid for that TO with a T. But now we find out that he has 1 more TO due to the book keeping error. He gets that one.

(Go ahead, fire away! I knew my last post would get *someone's* attention! )

That makes more sense. Of course, now that you state that the team still has one time-out remaining because they bought the other one with the T, I'm baffled by the fact that the team took an excessive time-out prior to its final allotted time-out.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That makes more sense. Of course, now that you state that the team still has one time-out remaining because they bought the other one with the T, I'm baffled by the fact that the team took an excessive time-out prior to its final allotted time-out.

Not any weirder than the fact that thousands of St. Louis fans entered the stadium with Game 4 tickets, and saw St. Louis win the series during Game 4, even though it was the fifth game played.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Not any weirder than the fact that thousands of St. Louis fans entered the stadium with Game 4 tickets, and saw St. Louis win the series during Game 4, even though it was the fifth game played.

That's funny!

Of course, St. Louis is not in Nevada. Maybe that's why I struggle with this concept.

I was taught to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... not 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, or is it 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 5 ..

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's funny!

Of course, St. Louis is not in Nevada. Maybe that's why I struggle with this concept.

I was taught to count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, ... not 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, or is it 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 5 ..

Or you can just count this way
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
etc

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Or you can just count this way
0
1
10
11
100
101
110
111
1000
etc

Didn't someone used to have a signature line about this? Something about

There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary, and those who don't.

And of course, Padgett would want to call it metric...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Tastes great...less filling...tastes great....less filling...

It's BOTH a book keeping error and a correctable error. The book keeping error led to unmerited FTs. The correctable error can be fixed if it's caught in time. (With me so far?)

If it's caught in time then the FT's come off, the coach got his TO and we play on, all is well. (Still with me?) If it's NOT fixed (ie caught too late) then the coach paid for that TO with a T. But now we find out that he has 1 more TO due to the book keeping error. He gets that one.

(Go ahead, fire away! I knew my last post would get *someone's* attention! )

Correcting a foul call (personal or technical) is not a correctable error once it has been enforced. It may be a bad call and it might be a good idea to fix it but it's is not a correctable error. It would, however, be a book keeping mistake. Unfortunately, you can't go back and change points that were actually scored as a result of a book keeping mistake. The only thing in the book that can be changed is the number of timeouts.

To illustrate the point. A5 commits a foul that should have been the fifth foul. The table informs the officials that it is only A5's 4th foul. A5 continues to score 12 points over the next two minutes when it is discovered that $5 has 5 fouls. Is it a bookkeeping mistake? Yes. Do we wipe A5's 12 points? No. Points scored stand.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BTW what is with all of these threads about time-out tracking problems with the table on this forum lately?

You beat me to it, but I'm with you on this. What happened with notifying the coach when they have used their last TO? This would help eliminate most of these problems.

Mregor

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correcting a foul call (personal or technical) is not a correctable error once it has been enforced. It may be a bad call and it might be a good idea to fix it but it's is not a correctable error. It would, however, be a book keeping mistake. Unfortunately, you can't go back and change points that were actually scored as a result of a book keeping mistake. The only thing in the book that can be changed is the number of timeouts.

To illustrate the point. A5 commits a foul that should have been the fifth foul. The table informs the officials that it is only A5's 4th foul. A5 continues to score 12 points over the next two minutes when it is discovered that $5 has 5 fouls. Is it a bookkeeping mistake? Yes. Do we wipe A5's 12 points? No. Points scored stand.

I agree that the "T" is a bookkeeping mistake but disagree on taking off the points. The bookkeeping mistake resulted in awarding unmerited free throws. Why wouldn't that be correctable?

In your scenario the player doesn't become DQ'd until the the table notifies the official and the official notifies the coach. All points would stand in this case.

In the "T" scenario we can correct the unmerited free throw and any activity before the recognition of the error. I would say the "T" happened before the error was recognized therefor I would wipe the "T."