Setting Initial Possession Arrow?

[vawils]

This is a common occurence that I am still not 100% certain of the correct call so appreciate some feedback:

On the initial jump ball, A1 clearly taps the ball to the sideline out of bounds. Obviously the ball goes to B1 for a throw in. Question is: should the arrow also go to B since it could be interpreted that A1 had first possession and tapped it out of bounds therefore next possession change should also go to B. Or should the arrow go to A since no real first possession by A? I think the latter ...... Thanks

[tjones1]

Read 4-3. That should clear it up for you.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by vawils

On the initial jump ball, A1 clearly taps the ball to the sideline out of bounds. Obviously the ball goes to B1 for a throw in. Question is: should the arrow also go to B since it could be interpreted that A1 had first possession and tapped it out of bounds

Did A1 control the ball before it went out of bounds? Remember that player control is established by "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds".

[crazy voyager]

A1 never has control of the ball, therefore it's A's arrow and B's throw in

[Nevadaref]

In your play A1 commits a violation by knocking the ball out-of-bounds prior to any player establishing control during or following the jump ball. Therefore the part of the rule in RED applies. Since the thrower is from Team B, the possession arrow will be pointed in favor of Team A unless something else happens prior to the throw-in.

RULE 4, SECTION 3 SETTING DIRECTION OF INITIAL ARROW
Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the
possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:
ART. 1 . . . A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.
ART. 2 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

A1 never has control of the ball, therefore it's A's arrow and B's throw in

No. While in FIBA there is team control during a throw-in, the direction of the alternate possession arrow is first established when there is team control of the ball in bounds as per FIBA rule 12.4.3:

12.4.3 The team that does not gain control of the live ball on the playing court after the jump ball which began the first period will start the alternating possession.

So in that case the arrow direction is not established until the throw-in is made and some player establishes control in bounds. Notice that the same wording is used for starting the 24 seconds count:

50.1 [The 24 seconds device shall be] Started or restarted whenever a team gains control of a live ball on the playing court.

Ciao

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

No. While in FIBA there is team control during a throw-in, the direction of the alternate possession arrow is first established when there is team control of the ball in bounds as per FIBA rule 12.4.3:

12.4.3 The team that does not gain control of the live ball on the playing court after the jump ball which began the first period will start the alternating possession.

So in that case the arrow direction is not established until the throw-in is made and some player establishes control in bounds. Notice that the same wording is used for starting the 24 seconds count:

So, in FIBA, is this how it would work?

1) A1 knocks opening tap directly out-of-bounds.
2) B1 inbounds
3) A2 steals the inbounds pass
4) Arrow set to Team B

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

So, in FIBA, is this how it would work?

1) A1 knocks opening tap directly out-of-bounds.
2) B1 inbounds
3) A2 steals the inbounds pass
4) Arrow set to Team B

Yes, until the steal there has been no possession in bounds after the initial jump ball.

Don't ask me why they chose to do this way. The FIBA rule committee has plenty of fantasy. For example they decided that a shot ends whenever the ball strikes the ring; so if after this a defensive player reaches through the basket and touches the ball above ring level, it is only a common violation and not basket interference (in FIBA there is no cylinder above the basket to cope with).

I guess that NFHS and NCAA treat differently the situation in the case proposed by the OP. In NCAA there is team control during a throw-in, so the arrow direction can be established as soon as the ball is handed to the thrower-in. In NHFS there is no team control during a throw-in, so the rule has to mention explicitly the exception. Am I right?

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

Yes, until the steal there has been no possession in bounds after the initial jump ball.

Don't ask me why they chose to do this way. The FIBA rule committee has plenty of fantasy. For example they decided that a shot ends whenever the ball strikes the ring; so if after this a defensive player reaches through the basket and touches the ball above ring level, it is only a common violation and not basket interference (in FIBA there is no cylinder above the basket to cope with).

I guess that NFHS and NCAA treat differently the situation in the case proposed by the OP. In NCAA there is team control during a throw-in, so the arrow direction can be established as soon as the ball is handed to the thrower-in. In NHFS there is no team control during a throw-in, so the rule has to mention explicitly the exception. Am I right?

This is intresting, becuse my rule-book doesn't say the same. Note this though: my book is the swedish(!) rules. It was first printed and was valid as of 04/05, how ever, I have the rule cahnges for 05/06, nothing there. Was this changed this season? in that case I'm not up to date.

Anyway, my book says (translated offcourse :P) : 12.4.3 The team that does not control the ball "in the jump ball at the start of the game" shall be awarded the first alternating possesion throw-in.

There is nothing said here about a boll on the court, if A bats it out, it's B's ball. At least according to my book. But if we can't agree I'll mail my assignor and ask him about it. But this could also be a national diffrence, I don't think so though :/

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

Anyway, my book says (translated offcourse :P) : 12.4.3 The team that does not control the ball "in the jump ball at the start of the game" shall be awarded the first alternating possesion throw-in.

The only difference in 12.4.3 between the 2004 and 2006 editions is that "court" becomes "playing court". I agree that a small difference in the wording can make big difference in the application of the rule. However in the 2006 revision all references to "court" in the 2004 edition have been changed into "playing court". And the definition of playing court is in 2.1:

2.1Playing court
The playing court shall have a flat, hard surface free from obstructions with dimensions of twenty-eight (28) m in length by fifteen (15) m in width measured from the inside edge of the boundary line.

I interpret this as meaning that out-of-bounds is not "in the playing court".

The translation you have does not mention "live ball" nor "playing court". The Italian translation is accurate.

The English version of the rule book is downloadable from FIBA.com.

Ciao