Penalty Administration Question

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

yes i can see that if B1 was the opposing fighter -- however for a player to come off the bench when B1 was gonna let it go and take the 2 ft's + possesion.

I could say instigation if the player that was directly effected hit back.

Basically, that's the way I looked at it too. The officials were already between A1 and B1. That one was over, so B6 coming in makes it two separate incidents instead of one imo.

[Junker]

I say A1 should hit the showers as well. Pushing a player in the chest with 2 hands is flagrant to me. I would deem that as "a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature" and it is also involved dead ball contact. A1 needs to go.

[Junker]

By the way, great job by B1 in keeping his cool. Maybe he should teach B6 a thing or two.

[jritchie]

Could you maybe call this a DOUBLE TECHNICAL since one caused the other...you have a dead ball contact technical by A1, then a flagrant Technical by B6 coming on the floor for fighting? off setting, no freethrows and go with the POI, which is alt possesssion arrow???? just wondering

[deecee]

no you cannot call this a double T -- 2 seperate incidents

A1 pushes B1 -- not flagrant but an unsportinglike T -- its a shove people not a punch or a prelude to a fight (however if B1 responds with anything more than a similar shove like say throw a punch then they both get tossed -- B1 for fighting and A1 for instigating a fight) -- this is the first incident

B1 now lets it go and that is over

B6 now comes off the bench and punches A1 -- seperate incident and this is a fight -- if A1 retaliates then he will be tossed too -- but since only B6 threw a punch hes ejected. 2 Sperate T's and its a false double.

B team shoots 2 then A team shoots 2 and gets possession. remember B coach now has his seatbelt on because B6 got him an indirect.

Junker to call a shove a flagrant is a bit of a reach -- I have seen plenty of shoves and probably 995 of them are just unsportmanlike. Now if the shove is lets say where he drives the player back and drives him to the ground thats different but a shove is just a T IMO depending on how B reacts. If B fights then A is responsible for that whole incident. If B shoves back then double T and we go POI. If B lets is go T on A and we go from there.

Hoever in this case I doubt it would end with B6 -- if this incident happens I will be very suprprised because I will expect something from A team as well because I do not know how I might handle it if I were on the bench and saw the opposition bench player rush the floor and deck my teammate. At the same time if I am on B bench and see my teammate run out I might follow him to get his back. So this is very clear and cut and dry but in reality I CANNOT see it happeing this way.

[edit]JR agrees with me on something -- or should I say I agree with him on something. It is a bit overcast here in SOCAL so maybe hell is freezing over

[Junker]

Deecee,
I can see where you're coming from, but if the shove pushes a player 5 feet and incites a player to leave the bench, on my floor they would both go. I think this is certainly a "had to be there" call, but it sounds savage and violent in nature to me. I agree that they are 2 separate incidents and with the rest of your post.

[deecee]

but this would refer to then if it was so bad why did B1 just let it go and not say or do anything? I know it could be personality but heres the caveat.

You would now have to T A1 up twice for the same act.

Because in reality this is how it will go

A1 shoves B1 -- tweet T on A1
B1 does nothing
About 3-4 seconds after the Shove out of nowhere comes B6 and socks A1 -- Tweet T and ejection for B6.

You have already called your T on A1 and didn't eject because I have never seen a kid get ejected based solely on a shove. Now you eject B6 and say A1 ejected too. Well you only called a T to begin with now you either have to change to another T or have ejected him when you intially blew your whistle on the T.

Now what if B1 didnt just stand around and shoves A1 back and B6 comes out and socks A1.

So A1 shoves B1 -- B1 shoves back and B6 decks A1.

are all 3 ejected? we have 2 shoves and 1 punch -- this is saying what B6 did was just as bad as what A1 and B1 did. IMO a shove does not equate to a punch on any level.

[Junker]

My post was unclear. If the play looked as bad as what I have in my head, another player pushed 5 feet, I would toss A1 instantly. That type of behavior by a player does not belong in the game of basketball and needs to be addressed early and as harshly as possible. Sitting out a game after an ejection is going to be a much better deterrent in getting this kid to calm down than a simple T.

[OHBBREF]

If b1 retaliates you have to eject both of them becuase the action and reaction are specifically covered in the rule. (I base this off of the severe shove - moved the player 5 feet)
B6 throwing the punch is worse and hopefully the team and or the conference will deal with it more severely than the one game suspension he has coming. Around here I am sure he is going to get at least two and then a lot of the schools will double that.