shot hits support wire

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This argument was not about fouls and violations, it was about a rule being set aside which erroneously result in a score.

I still don't get how the case play you reference has anything to do with this thread...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nosiree, BillyJoeBob. You ain't getting off that easy. It ain't a judgment call. The official was sure that he missed a foul.


A player pushes off to get a rebound, and grabs the ball and scores. After the throw-in, the team scored on calls a TO. The coach says "Wassup with the push-off? Howcome no foul?" . One official says "Gee, that was a foul. I shoulda called it". The other official didn't see the play. Can the official now go back and call the foul and wipe out the bucket because a foul happens when it occurs, not when it gets called? And the ball was dead anyway because an official's whistle seldom makes the ball dead?

So....according to you, he can go back and call the foul. Right?

Real world? Hell no. But my reasoning would still involve judgement - it was faulty judgement that allowed the foul to go uncalled.

Ok, since we're on the subject of real world - let's say I work for a grumpy, old assignor. I give him a call after the game, and give him the following information:

Our game went pretty smooth, except for one problem. I was at L, and BillyBob was at T. A1 shoots, the ball bounces high off the rim, and goes through. B's coach calls TO right away, and I see him talking to BillyBob. BillyBob calls me over and tells me the coach is asking why the basket counted, since it hit the support. I ask BB if he's sure it did, and he tells me, "Hell yea, it hit the guy wire. That's still in play, right?" So I tell him, nope, he lost his gold star for the evening. We called both coaches over, and I told them we screwed up a rule and counted the basket when it should've been OOB after hitting the support. We took off the basket, and gave the ball to B for a spot throw-in. A's coach grumbled a little, but I think he saw it hit as well.

So, how badly would our crew get dinged for handling it this way?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What we're talking about is correcting the administration of a penalty after a violation.

Great. Now tell me what rule you can use to correct the administration of a penalty after a violation has occurred but that violation was not been called?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Great. Now tell me what rule you can use to correct the administration of a penalty after a violation has occurred but that violation was not been called?

Depending on the sitch I'll start with 2.10/2.11 and move on to 2.3.

(Before you have a stroke...care to tell me how any of these cases we're discussing are addressed in the book?)

[deecee]

have we figured out whose is bigger?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, since we're on the subject of real world - let's say I work for a grumpy, old assignor. I give him a call after the game, and give him the following information:

Our game went pretty smooth, except for one problem. I was at L, and BillyBob was at T. A1 shoots, the ball bounces high off the rim, and goes through. B's coach calls TO right away, and I see him talking to BillyBob. BillyBob calls me over and tells me the coach is asking why the basket counted, since it hit the support. I ask BB if he's sure it did, and he tells me, "Hell yea, it hit the guy wire. That's still in play, right?" So I tell him, nope, he lost his gold star for the evening. We called both coaches over, and I told them we screwed up a rule and counted the basket when it should've been OOB after hitting the support. We took off the basket, and gave the ball to B for a spot throw-in. A's coach grumbled a little, but I think he saw it hit as well.

So, how badly would our crew get dinged for handling it this way?

Real world?

You got two coaches that need an explanation. Neither of them is going to be happy. Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to issue something to both coaches that will tell them what the proper call should have been according to their particular set of playing rules. And in their particular set of playing rules, there is NO rule that Grumpy Ol' Assignor knows of that will allow an official to go back and cancel the basket. And btw, Grumpy Ol' Assignor also asked his association's interpreter, Mr. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter, if he knew of any rule that would apply. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter couldn't come up with a rule either that would let an official go back and cancel the basket because a violation was not called at some point prior to that basket being scored. So, Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to write a letter to both coaches and the league saying that, unfortunately, one of his officials musunderstood a rule and failed to call a violation that he should have called. And then his fellow official came up with another ruling that is not supported by any rule in the book to retroactively call the missed violation and cancel the made basket. Grumpy Ol' Assignor wrote that the proper ruling on the court would have been to count the made basket because there was no rules provision to do otherwise. Grumpy Ol' Assignor then apologizes to both coaches and their league on behalf of both officials and his association, and assures them that such a situation will not happen again in the future.

Would the officials get dinged? You bet your sweet azz that both officials are getting dinged. The first official is getting dinged for not knowing that the wire is OOB. The second official is getting dinged for cancelling a made basket without having any rules provision to do so.

Mr. Grumpy Ol' Assignor is not a happy man, BillyJoeBob. Fair is fair, but rulez is rulez too. Sometmes they don't meet.

And btw, in the real world, the team that had the basket taken away always loses by 1.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Real world?

You got two coaches that need an explanation. Neither of them is going to be happy. Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to issue something to both coaches that will tell them what the proper call should have been according to their particular set of playing rules. And in their particular set of playing rules, there is NO rule that Grumpy Ol' Assignor knows of that will allow an official to go back and cancel the basket. And btw, Grumpy Ol' Assignor also asked his association's interpreter, Mr. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter, if he knew of any rule that would apply. Grumpy Ol' Rules Interpreter couldn't come up with a rule either that would let an official go back and cancel the basket because a violation was not called at some point prior to that basket being scored. So, Grumpy Ol' Assignor has to write a letter to both coaches and the league saying that, unfortunately, one of his officials musunderstood a rule and failed to call a violation that he should have called. And then his fellow official came up with another ruling that is not supportedaddressed by any rule in the book to retroactively call the missed violation and cancel the made basket. Grumpy Ol' Assignor wrote that the proper ruling on the court would have been to count the made basket because there was no rules provision to do otherwise. Grumpy Ol' Assignor then apologizes to both coaches and their league on behalf of both officials and his association, and assures them that such a situation will not happen again in the future.

Would the officials get dinged? You bet your sweet azz that both officials are getting dinged. The first official is getting dinged for not knowing that the wire is OOB. The second official is getting dinged for cancelling a made basket without having any rules provision to do so.

Mr. Grumpy Ol' Assignor is not a happy man, BillyJoeBob. Fair is fair, but rulez is rulez too. Sometmes they don't meet.

And btw, in the real world, the team that had the basket taken away always loses by 1.

cough cough...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I still don't get how the case play you reference has anything to do with this thread...

What it has to do with this thread is that it is a case where a mistake was made and everyone knows it. But it tells you that no matter how soon the mistake is realized, it is not correctable. You do not at least see the similarity to the play we have been discussing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

1) Depending on the sitch I'll start with 2.10/2.11 and move on to 2.3.

2) (Before you have a stroke...care to tell me how any of these cases we're discussing are addressed in the book?)

1) Where specifically in rule 2-10/11 does it say you can correct a violation? R2-3?

2) Stroke? M&M is the guy with the sore wrist. And...the cases in the rule?s, R2-10, R2-11-11,, 5-10, etc., address specifically what can be corrected. Are you saying that if it's not specifically in the book, then an official has the power to correct any mistake or missed call, no matter when it happened?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

cough cough...

Yeah, there's that too....

Have you noticed that Mr. Jenkins did a great job of asking questions and...ah...stirring up this debate, but Mr. Jenkins has never managed to state his own personal opinion on what the proper way to handle this particular situation is?

And Mr. Tiny IAABO Rules Interpreter has been kinda noticeable by his absence too?

Why is that?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Where specifically in rule 2-10/11 does it say you can correct a violation? R2-3?

2) Stroke? M&M is the guy with the sore wrist. And...the cases in the rule?s, R2-10, R2-11-11,, 5-10, etc., address specifically what can be corrected. Are you saying that if it's not specifically in the book, then an official has the power to correct any mistake or missed call, no matter when it happened?

1. I'm not correcting a violation in Bob's play. I'm correcting the erroneous counting of a score due to inadvertently setting aside a rule (the penalty for the violation).

2. Me? Surely you jest, what little ol' me sez is not relevant...but the rulebook...ahhh, now there's an authority you can take to the bank!

Section 3. Elastic Power
Art. 1. The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

[M&M Guy]

Huh.

It's a good thing my assignors aren't grumpy.

Actually, if I would've called it like you wanted, A would've won by 3, or possibly 5. If we tell B's coach we screwed up, but still get to leave the basket on the board, and charge him for his (probably) last TO, he's probably going to be getting a T. And, depending on their personality, maybe 2. So Grumpy Ol' Assignor will still have to write a bunch of letters.

I think we all agree we just can't go back and retroactively call fouls and violations. And we all agree about the correctable error situations. But where we disagree is whether this is retroactively calling a violation, or correcting a wrong rule interpretation.

So, I'm done. I've got to go put an ice pack on my wrist.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What it has to do with this thread is that it is a case where a mistake was made and everyone knows it. But it tells you that no matter how soon the mistake is realized, it is not correctable. You do not at least see the similarity to the play we have been discussing?

No.

The rule book explicitly tells us what to do in your play.

Apples and pomegranates.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

No.

The rule book explicitly tells us what to do in your play.

Apples and pomegranates.

Dang it!

Why do you guys always mention food this time of day?!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

. I'm correcting the erroneous counting of a score due to inadvertently setting aside a rule (the penalty for the violation).

[/B]

What violation? The one that was never called?

This has turned into an Abbott 'n' Costello skit now...."Who's on First?"